'New' New Day timer compared

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: 'New' New Day timer compared
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, August 04, 2017 - 05:28 pm:

Got today the newer New Day made by Tip Top Timers (got it from Lang's) and am impressed with the construction details and parts supplied.



The case is dark hard phenolic plastic, and marked like the older originals, comes with brass screws for wire leads, pin and washer for the rotor.




Its the brush rotor that I like in this design, as the bronze brush fit in the steel housing has little 'slop or wiggle' when compressed into the rotor cylinder. If you grasp the compressed brush, (there is a spring behind the brush) you can't wiggle much. The other repops you can wiggle the brush too much IMO.

That can be a cause of failure to the earlier New Day repops.





Here is one type of failure, the brush gets busted by the retaining pin and falls into the timer case and your T is dead in the road!

This photo is showing the best I could of why it's important that the brush rides more firmly in the steel housing without undue wiggle or slop.



If you observe the upper rotor (Tip Top's new New Day rotor) you can see its compressed some as when in position for running, and the retaining pin is centered nicely in the steel housing.

Note the lower brush from other available repops, as these brushes aren't made to fit nice, there is lots of wiggle of the brush in the housing.

That allows the retaining pin to ride on the edge of the vertical slot that controls depth of the brush. By impinging on the edge of this slot while the brush is whirled around the housing under spring pressure, excess pressure is placed on that retaining pin, that leads to ultimate fracture of the bronze brush at the hole for the retaining pin.


Think runabout is going to enjoy it's new New Day for a long time :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Friday, August 04, 2017 - 06:22 pm:

I wish Tom a lot of luck on this project! I have logged thousands of miles on all of my cars, and they all have New Days. I believe some of the older style brushes are not as wide as the later ones, which may be in fact reproductions. I just checked two NOS brushes I have, and they appear to be as pictured.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, August 04, 2017 - 06:31 pm:

Glad someone is finally making a well made New Day.
It should have been done years ago. My uncle told me long ago that simple always works the best.
The New Day is a good example of that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Friday, August 04, 2017 - 06:55 pm:

I have cherished the notion that the New Day design "forgives" a timing gear cover that is not precisely centered over the camshaft - I'd appreciate an opinion from youse guys who are savvy about the erratic behavior of a T that results when the cover is off canter with a conventional timer.

In another lifetime, I had very good results with New Day timers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen, South Texas on Friday, August 04, 2017 - 07:25 pm:

Nope. The same thing will occur if the cover is not centered. It's still a radius travel thing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Friday, August 04, 2017 - 07:46 pm:

Rich
Here you go. Accurate Spark Timing


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Friday, August 04, 2017 - 07:53 pm:

Thanks for the link Ron !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, August 04, 2017 - 08:29 pm:

Rich

Somewhat true to strive for a concentric cover to the cam, that said, the forward facing brush of the New Day is different from the roller brush that has to go around concentric with the inside wall of the Ford style roller timer case.

One advantage of the New Day is the forward facing brush maintains contact if the cam bearings are worn. A slightly out of round at the camshaft is terror on a roller rotor, causing skips, but not so much on the forward facing rotor of the New Day making contact with the front of the case.

A tired engine with worn cam bushings can run fairly well with the New Day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Derocher on Friday, August 04, 2017 - 10:42 pm:

Thanks for the informative write up Dan, I just finished struggling with an Anderson timer with a worn out flapper. I may have to try the New Day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 12:34 am:

So far, New Day timers work well for me.


Here's something else that can happen with an ill-fitting brush.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 12:50 am:

The brush Steve posted above does not appear to authentic. The chamfer on all four corners, as well as the huge slot for the pin. The original brushes were copper plated, but I doubt if the lack of that will make a difference. Thanks again to Tom Carnegie for taking on this impossible project!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 03:00 am:

Is the brush sold by itself? I have a bunch of old New Day needing the brush holder. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman, New Zealand on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 06:48 am:

I notice in the bottom of Dan's pictures the amount of brush material below the pin is greater on the 'new' version. This alone will strengthen the brush and help resist the fracture shown in photo 2. It looks a real nice job, Well done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 07:58 am:

Stephen, I would think that with the rather large face area of the "pie shaped" contacts, it would indeed be a bit forgiving if the cover is a bit off center. After all, it pretty much can't be off-center THAT much in the first place if it were.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 08:25 am:

How durable are the contacts in the cover ? Is there a chance that they will peel and seperate from the cover? How about camshaft end float, is that an issue?
Alan in Western Australia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 08:48 am:

If you read and understand Fahnestock's article "Accurate Spark Timing" provided in the link above you will see that all timers, to varying degrees, will create inter-cylinder spark timing differences if the engine timing cover is not concentric with the camshaft. This problem is further exacerbated by the fact that the magneto only produces current pulses at 22 degree interval.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 09:22 am:

Alan, the answer is no. The contacts are thick, embedded, and solid. I think end play in the cam shaft would have to be pretty drastic to affect the timer. The brush spring is long enough to compensate for well over .100" movement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 09:24 am:

Clarification: All "Mechanical Timers", to varying degrees, will create inter-cylinder spark timing differences if the engine timing cover is not concentric with the camshaft.

Use of a single cylinder position sensor eliminates ignition timing error due to non-concentric timer position. Also, All restrictions on ignition timing imposed by magneto operation are eliminated by using battery operation which permits continuous adjustment of ignition timing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 10:08 am:

Dan Hatch

I'll say no to the available brush only for the newer New Day.

While the 2017 Lang's catalog lists the "New" New Day with a 'new caption', the brush only is also with a 'new caption' (p/n 3221BR) .....But I ordered that too with the New Day and got the plain old style in the white Ford envelope.



Brush on top came in the 'new' New Day white box.

Brush on bottom of photo was the just delivered 3221BR...but its the same old same old, not real good as the bronze brush rattles around in the steel rotor cylinder. :-(

Maybe Don Lang has lots of old stock on the shelf to sell first ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 10:24 am:

If a photo is needed of a NOS New Day brush assy., I can supply one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 03:31 pm:

Larry, please do, that would be instructive !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 07:13 pm:

I'll try to do that. I'm not real handy with a camera, OR transferring them to this computer. It may be a day or two!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 07:25 pm:

Larry
Here is a photo of a NOS New Day Timer brush I have.
1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 09:18 pm:

Thanks, Ron !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 10:24 am:

Wow look how straight the brush emerges on the NOS version even at full extension. The pin is also dead center in the slot but I wonder how much "slop" there is or "wiggle" of the brush at various amounts of extension. Not trying to be picky but just wondering how tight the specs might have been on the original ND timers back in the day. The ND was the very first timer I had on my first T when I got it. It ran for a very long time and I innocently swapped it for a brand new ND repro that was a disaster and got introduced to the world of poorly made repro stuff but it wasn't that hard to navigate through the crap to find a good timer but lots of people got burned on the newer repro version of the ND timer. This does NOT mean that Tom's new ND timer is to be consider questionable since clearly a careful repro was always possible and I am in hopes that Tom's new one fills that bill. For awhile the ND was a great timer with a horrible undeserved reputation brought on by poorly made repro version when the real culprit that started the problems was the cam gear hub thickness being made too thick. That issue coupled with soft plastic housing spelled total disaster.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 10:44 am:

If you have a fiber timing gear, as John mentioned, the thickness at the center is far greater than the original Ford timing gears. I take a flat file and turn it sideways and file a notch in the brush allowing the brush to seat on the shoulder of the camshaft as it should. What is happening is the brush hits the camshaft retaining nut. The notch only needs to be filed down about 1/8".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 11:13 am:

John

That 'questionable' New Day is this one, with the 'S' mark under the rod hole, and made of a stiff steely black plastic. Have used these, and for me there were miss and skips, which I think is due to that soft plastic dragged over the contacts, it's stuck on pretty hard.






Those earlier copies came in a repro box, and made of a better plastic for the timer case, and lasted pretty good.



As for that nice NOS rotor, I like that too!
The Tip Top New Day rotor is better that others with steel housing, but like the brass housing of the earlier.

This is an original New Day Bakelite case, (you can tell by the fancy nose on the case where the timer case spring (3163) locks it in place on the front plate).



The rotor is all brass to like that NOS, but don't know if it may be the earlier repop as they were brass too?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 11:51 am:

"If you have a fiber timing gear..."

...get rid of it before it goes to pieces.
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 12:31 pm:

I thought the majority agreed that the Anderson timer was the best. Is there a New Number One?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 01:46 pm:

Terry
I don't believe so, and "Number One" is solely a matter of opinion.
There are three good mechanical timer options on the market each with their own strong and weak attributes. There is also a bunch of crap being reproduced.
In my opinion the best criteria should be; a timer that will last one complete touring season without failure when used based upon manufacturer recommendations.
It is important to remember that the timer needs to be installed correctly and is a high wear item on the Model T and constant periodic attention is in order.


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