A frustrating afternoon .. no start

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: A frustrating afternoon .. no start
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 08:21 pm:

Almost hate to post this, but it may help someone. I had my rebuilt engine on the bare chassis going a couple of weeks ago but had to squirt some oil in the cylinders before I could get any appreciable compression and vacuum. I had no radiator at the time so didn't run it long ... just enough to confirm the timing was correct.

Ok ... went through some hurdles to get the new radiator and even the second one came slightly damages by FedEx, but it's on the car and I wanted to give the engine it's first real workout to begin working in the rings.

To be sure I had the best of everything I bought some new high test no alcohol gas and put it into a small gas tank to feed down into the NH carburetor. I tested the compression (hand cranked only one sequence) and got around 40 psi on all cylinders. Would be better if I had the starter motor installed I suspect ... but at least they were even.

I started with the carb mix at 1 1\2 turns open and worked my way richer as the afternoon went on. Pulled the chock for four cranks and then turned on the ignition with spark fully retarded and gas about 1/3 down. Cranked and cranked and nothing. Not even a chuff.

I tried ether in the carb, ether in the spark plug holes ... I rechecked the timing .. I set the spark plug gaps at 20 - 35. I squirted MMO in the cylinders and waited five minutes ... did get a five cylinder fire run on that one. But really I should have had this thing running. I have spark at the right time. I have compression and vacuum (had a friend hold their hand on the carb opening while I cranked to confirm) .. I have clean "debris free" gas to the carb ... what else?

Using old champion x plugs that worked fine with my last T which started by hand crank on both battery and mag. Remember I did have this engine running a couple of weeks ago but only for a few minutes since I had no radiator on the chassis at that point.

The only thing left is getting new plugs and Steve Jelf suggested the Autolite 3095. Also I might installed the starter motor and let it do the work. Could be I just don't have the right combination of gas mix and spark adjustment and by using the starter it will give me the opportunity to adjust as the motor is cranking.

I know that once I run in this engine it will be smooth sailing ... just haven't had the thing run long enough for it to work it's parts in just yet. Good thing I go back to work tomorrow ... will clear my head so that I can attack it with a different perspective.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 09:49 pm:

Mark

Try leaning up your initial adj. on the carb setting.

Ford recommends 3/4 to about 1 turn open.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 10:08 pm:

Yeah ... that's what I usually go down to after starting with a mix that is richer. The problem is that despite all my cranking today ... I never really felt that I was getting gas into the cylinders. Pulled the plugs and they were never really wet. But ... I'll go leaner and try again. It's possible I just don't have enough oxygen to go with the gas. Every engine is different. Hard to learn new settings after driving another T for so many years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Sunday, August 06, 2017 - 10:15 pm:

It may not be your problem, but I agree with Dan, as that is the one thing I picked up on right away. I have had a couple different carbs and not one of them ever seemed to exceed around 1 1/4 turns from seated.

But that aside, even if too rich trying and trying, usually ether is volatile enough it should have fired---if everything else was right. Remember, compression, fuel, and spark....timing last.

I know alot of gentleman here love their old spark plugs, I would just rather screw a new one in---but i know Steve Jelf had an issue with new ones not that long ago. To each their own, I personally use Autolite 3095 and Motorcraft F11 (SP 465).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 07:29 am:

I've got compression and the electric is timed correctly. So I guess the two things to look at are the carb needle adjustment and the spark plugs. I ordered a set of Autolite 3095 plugs last night. Will give it a go when I get the new plugs. Gap suggestion? 25 or 30?

Interestingly on my last T I had a spiffy accessory column mounted needle adjuster for the past ten years. It was originally for a Stomberg set up. This was set to the sweet spot and when I started the car the lever was pushed towards Gas to give a richer mix. As the engine warmed up I pushed it to Air to lean the mixture as needed. Moved the needle a half a turn in either direction. Was very handy.

I tried the richer needle adjustments because I thought I wasn't getting enough gas in the cylinders.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dufault on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 08:11 am:

feed down into the NH carburetor

In the For what it's worth dept., my NH aspirated engine "floods" very easily. Most times it starts easily without choking. I forget, but I think while running it is open not more than 3/4.

When choked or "flooded", I get the same symptoms as you Mark...crank & crank & crank, and not even a chugg.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 10:53 am:

Have you actually verified that the spark on #1 and the just past TDC on #1 on compression are occurring? Or...is #3 firing when#1piston is ready?

Some camshaft End were drilled thru. As a result, the roller/flapper can go on 180 degrees out and #3 fires when you 'think' #1 is firing...a"wasted" spark in that sense as the valve on #3 is open!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 11:53 am:

Hey George,

Yes, read my post ... I had this engine running a couple of weeks ago as a test. No problems at all with timing. It's sounding like a carb adjustment or spark plug issue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 12:04 pm:

Mark: I understand your frustration, George had a quirky problem with starting a '27 Hack engine, wore down the new battery, after had a shop charger to aid to no avail..... the cam was drilled all the way thru putting the ignition timing 180 degrees out of specs.

Who would expect to see a '27 camshaft drilled thru ??


Not George



Bob J.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 12:07 pm:

Some will defalt a Grosse-Jet carb inlet valve stating that they stick shut. I've had no problems with a Grosse-Jet valve.

Check your carb valve and/or for a float that sticks in the closed position.

Fingers crossed....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 12:08 pm:

Mark, check the battery in your clock if the afternoon wont start! Thats a "timing joke". I know, that doesnt help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 12:20 pm:

They're all different, but I can assure you that 1-1/2 turns open is WAY too much on either of mine, especially this time of year. And 4 choke pulls......?????? I'd have gas puddling on the floor under the carb. One choke pull is all either of mine usually need. If it doesn't start with one, I'll give it another, but no way would mine ever need 4 choke pulls right from the git-go. But hey, they're all different.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 12:26 pm:

BTW, a good test of whether you are flooded (And conveniently, the way to fix a flooded engine), open the throttle and try to crank it. Just be ready, or have someone else ready, to close the throttle. It may take a few pulls to clear the excess gas, but if it starts after a few pulls of doing that, you KNOW you were flooded, and know what NOT to do next time. It will be running pretty fast when it does start, but it won't hurt it if you close the throttle immediately. With the timing retarded like it is for starting, it won't turn up REAL high rpm's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dale w on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 12:58 pm:

Compression + fuel + spark* = ignition.

You have compression.

You have fuel.

You THINK you have spark, but under compression spark plugs can behave differently and all it takes is a minute carbon track or a bit of wet fuel to foul a plug that will fire consistently observed sitting on the head.

Try a NEW set of plugs.

*correctly timed!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lenney Glenn on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 01:01 pm:

Mark, I have had the same problem that you are having. Both times it was caused by a sticking Grosse Jet float valve. Both times it occurred after the car had not been started for several days. These were both new carbs. Does anyone know what material the needle tip has been coated with? Am I the only person that has had this problem? I used old needles and ground the shank diameter down. they fit a little sloppy but work fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 01:49 pm:

This NH carburetor is the type marked Ford in the casting and has the original steel jet and needle valve. They were in good enough condition. Just cleaned it up [internal holes etc] and installed new gaskets. Flooded the first time I connected it ... then pulled it and reset the float and now it's not leaking. A couple of pulls with the choke and it spills excess gas from the vent as it should. Conventional wisdom is that I have the needle set too rich for starting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dufault on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 02:09 pm:

Agreed


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 02:57 pm:

Lenney, the answer is no, you're not alone. The Grose jet is notoriously troublesome. My best luck has been with original needles.


Second from right is original style.


If the surface isn't smooth, you can turn it against fine sandpaper with a drill.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lenney Glenn on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 03:19 pm:

Thank you Steve. I am going to try your method of resurfacing a tip. Can I grind the coating off of a Grosse?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lenney Glenn on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 03:25 pm:

Thank you Steve. I am going to try your method of resurfacing a tip. Can I grind the coating off of a Grosse?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 03:31 pm:

The Grosse jet is two caged balls. Work very well in automobiles with fuel pumps but are notoriously bad in "T"s. I cannot understand why some professional "T" carb rebuilders insist on using them.

If you have a coating on the tip, you really have an aftermarket traditional valve like Steve's first one. If so, it is Viton rubber. I find that they work very well so long as the gas is used or refreshed every 4-6 weeks. I never used to have a problem with them and ethanol, but lately, the older the fuel is, the more likely the rubber is to bubble and delaminate from the tip. Bummer...they used to be great and last for years...something's changed in the fuel...again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 04:04 pm:

I have read this thread twice and while I am slow I don't see any mention of a coil buzz. Is there one when you hand crank? Dick C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 04:30 pm:

Yes, of course ... rebuilt coils. Lot's of buzzing ... spark at plugs and end of plug wires. I did mention that I had a test run of this engine a couple of weeks ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lenney Glenn on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 04:52 pm:

Scott, thanks for clearing the confusion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Mazza on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 05:34 pm:

Mark, perhaps check and make sure intake didn't loosen after last heat cycle. I have had similar issue, tightened up nuts and problem solved no more vacuum leak.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 05:46 pm:

Believe it or not, I've had a Viton tip stick a couple of times. That's why I went back to original needles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 07:09 pm:

The vacuum and compression was fine .... so no problem there. The compression was around 40 psi on all cylinders hand cranked with only one cycle. Will try again after installing the starter later this week. Will be able to go through 8-10 cycles and get a more accurate reading.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 07:44 pm:

Well, Steve, that's what you get with a car that runs as well as yours...mine vibrates so much, I'm amazed that the paint sticks much less the rubber tipped valve :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 01:15 am:

My 21 wouldn't start one time for presumably no reason. I put a battery on it and pulled the plugs and laid them on the head. Cranked it over and they all sparked. Put them back in after squirting a little gas in the cylinders, nothing. Put in another set of plugs and it fired right up. If I've cranked it enough I think I may have flooded it I screw the adjuster all the way down then crank it until it fires then screw the needle out real fast, or if it dies then you know it's not flooded anymore and start it as usual. I had a grosse jet in a 4 ball Kingston that would stick shut after a few days as well on my 14.


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration