I cracked a Holley G throttle shaft lever.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: I cracked a Holley G throttle shaft lever.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 07:42 pm:

I've read the warnings about annealing brass time and again if one is going to try to reshape it any.
I didn't heed them (obviously) and cracked the throttle shaft lever on my iron G. The first bit of reforming went good.
It was sagging down a bit and thought it should be straight.
"Just a tiny bit more Duane." Click.
I cracked it in the narrow part. Not broken all the way thru thankfully.
Ugh.
Insert dunce-cap image here. I have that image but I'm trying to be more "Serious" here so I won't.
Do I dare try to solder it? Would it hold for another hundred or does it need brazing or...?
Would you give opinions?
Thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 08:10 pm:

soft solder will be useless. I'd silver-solder it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, August 07, 2017 - 11:48 pm:

Duey, silver solder is the way to go. It is much stronger than soft solder. I would never try to braze a brass part. You would most likely end up with a blob of brass as the two materials are of similar melting points.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 03:03 am:

I think solver solder is the way to go. Strong, fairly easy. Good stuff.

There is a trick I have used to "weld" brass.

Now a technical correction. "Brazing" is a dissimilar metal attachment method to hold steel and other non-brass (usually ferrous) metals. Brass is the dissimilar metal, and in effect, the "glue" that holds the various iron and steel materials together. You NEVER want to get the pieces being attached to become hot enough that the metals blend together.
"Welding" is the process of using a similar material and mixing the original and filler materials together. Often, the specific alloys will be different. The filler rod may be an alloy designed for better flow, or easier blending with the materials being attached. But the basic material is generally similar to the pieces being attached. Aluminum rod for welding aluminum. Iron rod for cast or wrought iron. Steel rod for steel. And, standard brazing rod can be used to weld brass. (The same flux usually seems to work fine.)

Now, the problem with welding brass, is a couple of things. One, the copper content especially, but most other elements in brass alloys also, are excellent heat conductors. The whole thing gets too hot too fast to weld easily. Too much area, or even the entire piece, wants to melt down before you are nearly finished.
Two, welding is generally done near a material stage of plasticity. That is a temperature range between solid and liquid. The actual weld is created in a liquid state, surrounded by the plastic state, further surrounded by the hot but still solid state. Steel for example, has quite a few degrees temperature range in the plastic state. The heat moves outward slowly enough, that the liquid pool in the center can be controlled. Deep penetration is possible without a complete meltdown.
Now, a slight side step. Consider water. Water does not have a plastic state. Right at 32 degrees Fahrenheit Earth average sea level, it moves instantly, molecule by molecule, in a crystalline structure, between liquid and solid forms.
Brass does have a plastic state. However, the temperature window is very small. Kind of like water. (Except maybe for the whole "crystalline" thing.) Controlling the puddle between the solid and liquid states of brass is the problem. Welding brass is very tricky. The way I have done it on several brass welds I have made, is to barely bury the brass piece in sand, or plaster. The difficulty with sand, is that the torch usually blows the sand around. Careful aiming of the torch can make that help maintain a work area. But care must be made to not blow sand into your weld, or blow too large a hole in your work area.
For plaster? I am sure that there are better choices. But I used some plaster of Paris that I had on hand. It did not seem to like getting as hot as the brass welding required. But since its use was temporary by design, I didn't worry about it much. I made a shallow form. placed the broken part inside, and filled in the plaster of Paris, leaving a work area open for the planned weld. (Just barely larger than the weld area.)
In both methods, the weld was a bit messy, and slightly oversize. Some filing was required. But the finished piece seemed very strong. The sand or the plaster supported the surrounding areas of the parts, and allowed the entire piece to get hot, without collapsing under its own weight. Even doing this, it would be easy to completely melt down a small throttle arm.

I still think silver solder is the way to go for this. Or get a good straight arm. Although, it does amaze me how many of those arms are bent.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 06:14 pm:

Never thought about silver solder.
Very interesting too.
Thanks guys!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 08:38 pm:

Soldering it would probably be easier than replacing it but you can have this one if you want it. It's straight. I think it was from a Kingston but it looks the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison - Rice, Minnesota on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 10:30 pm:

Duey, I've got a steel g out in the shop. Maybe I've got what you need. I'll check whenever I'm able to get out there. If it's there, you can have it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison - Rice, Minnesota on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 10:45 pm:

Okay Duey, see anything you need?




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 10:57 pm:

Corey, I like the locking screw as opposed to the jam nut on my iron G just from a "cool" perspective.
They ARE exceptionally similar aren't they? About a hole off for each pivot point.
The idle stops are similarish.
AND a fun project just to see IF it would work out!
If I don't get it sorted in a couple days, I'll be in touch.
Thank you! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Thursday, August 10, 2017 - 01:11 am:

Holy crap! I type SLOWWWWW!
I gotta look again!

Mike, you have a whole iron G there!
40 bucks and you could have a whole, ready to go carby! I gotta look again.

(Message edited by Duey_C on August 10, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Thursday, August 10, 2017 - 01:25 am:

Minus the plates. Uhh, what am I missing?
Uhh, yeah. I see the part I want. An hour away and my daughter may draw your blood someday and she'll enjoy it... :-)
She's twisted that way. :-)
No way. We'll talk in a few days. You got SHXT to keep you busy.
Interesting Mike! Due the rust on that throttle lever, is it an iron lever? Very interesting!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison - Rice, Minnesota on Thursday, August 10, 2017 - 09:15 am:

Duey, I have to go back out to the box and see if the other plate and the float needle is there. I'm going to put this one up on the shelf with my other carbs and it's yours when you come and get it. I won't ever use it and you might as well have it. I've got some old Strombergs, a Winfield, a Rayfield and a rebuilt Kingston to play with this Winter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Thursday, August 10, 2017 - 11:54 pm:

Well, I tried a silver band-aid on this cracked brass lever on the iron G.
Take the shaft out? No. Too lazy and cheap for that. Gotta try it in-situ despite the warnings of a heat sink etc.

band-aid

I think it looks fantastic! The silver flowed on real nice, stuck and the extra fell off when I touched it.
I got it all set up and was expecting a horrible time. A little brass brush cleaning.
The tube of flux says to NOT heat the flux directly. OK.
Once all set up, I put the heat to it.
I heated the ring on the end and then concentrated on the the shaft closest to the carb.
5 minutes tops! Boom done. Wha?
What do you think? Good to go or should I replace the lever?
Thanks on so many levels!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Friday, August 11, 2017 - 09:57 am:

I'd grab it with some padded pliers and give it a twist. If it is still in one piece, you're good to go. Congratulations on a successful 1st silver solder job!

Word of warning: the next solder jobs often don't go so well or so easily as this first! HaHa

Actually, ease or difficulty is often a function of the solder alloy and especially the type/brand of flux, so it looks like you've gotten a hold of some nice stuff.

scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Friday, August 11, 2017 - 06:56 pm:

Scott, now that's funny and oh so true about the warning! :-) Thank you. :-)
I've soldered radiators, soldered iron pipe fittings to a grease barrel for a cooling tower for an old gas engine and
done all sorts of wrong things with solder including installing jumper wires on the circuit board in a TV remote.
When I was younger.
Nowadays I can't get solder to stick to anything but the floor out in the shop!
:-)


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