Feeback Wanted:

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Feeback Wanted:
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Saturday, August 12, 2017 - 01:09 pm:

I have recently rebuilt two Ruckstells and installed new reproduction axles in both from two different vendors with the same results - the axle keyway slot is .247 and a standard 1/4" square key is .249 measured with digital calipers. My retired master machinist says "Too Much" !

Has anyone recently had this same issue with the standard key not fitting into the keyway ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, August 12, 2017 - 01:26 pm:

From two different vendors, but I bet from the same source. It wouldn't surprise me if all the dealers carried the same ones. I hope somebody will prove me wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vern (Vieux Carre) on Saturday, August 12, 2017 - 02:42 pm:

I would not be surprised if the keys were intentionally oversized in order to "save" an axle.
Vern


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, August 12, 2017 - 05:17 pm:

I agree with Steve J, two vendors, same source. But that is actually a good thing. Volume and consistency are good things that made the model T affordable and great! However, consistency should also be accurate and correct.
You may want to ask your vendors? I would be tempted to maybe alert them to the problem. A quarter inch key-stock is supposed to be almost precisely .250 inch. It may be that the key slot is undersized slightly to compensate for worn original keys? I would probably set a key in a vise and carefully file to fit a half side. Done it before.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Saturday, August 12, 2017 - 05:46 pm:

Keys are dimensioned to either nominal to .002" under or nominal to .002" over...take a look at key specifications on line to verify.

I agree that what you have now would be a tad tight.

I'm interested in this as I am about to be where you are right now.

Honestly, I'd be inclined to pass the key over a file a few times and get it to where it is just a "tap-in-fit". Undoubtedly your hubs will have some wear to the point where the loss of .002 on width will be swamped by existing fit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, August 12, 2017 - 06:10 pm:

I'd try the key fit in the hub before reducing its size. You don't want it sloppy in the hub.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Saturday, August 12, 2017 - 10:39 pm:

I dressed the first keys down to fit the new axles with new CNC perfectly, and I mean perfectly, machined accessory Phelps wire wheel hubs until the keys were a very light tap fit into the axle keyways - all went together nice BUT I believe and the same as my machinist does that the repro axle's keyway is just machined too narrow for the standard key available from all the vendors. I've spoken to one vendor and was told the axles come from the same supplier which I will call on Monday to verify. I have another pair awaiting another Ruckstell rebuild and don't feel the need to have to modify any new parts to fit !

Mike - that's the problem with Ruckstell #2's axles - Pasco wire hubs with a smidgen of wear !

I don't believe everything I read on-line, Scott.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Saturday, August 12, 2017 - 11:11 pm:

I don't believe everything on-line either, but a spec is a spec; what I posted is accurate and not an opinion. There are standards after all, and those are the standards for keys of this size.

ANSI-ASME B17.1 2003 Keys and Keyseats

Also, I agree with you, the keyway of the axle, at that dimension, is small. It should be .2500/.2520. The cutter used for that operation was undoubtedly past it's prime, and there was no quality check for that feature (or it was ignored)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Sunday, August 13, 2017 - 12:04 pm:

I requested feedback for this reason "Has anyone recently had this same issue with the standard key not fitting into the keyway ? - that's all !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Sunday, August 13, 2017 - 01:39 pm:

Let me apologize for any information or advice that I may have given you that you did not ask for. I would say to be sure to ignore it, but in fact, you took it. There's gratitude for you. I thought perhaps other readers might be interested in it, and for them, I hope it was useful.

Now that I know, in any future questions you ask, I'll be more careful to only provide exactly what is asked for. Or perhaps I'll simply ignore it. On second thought, I'll ignore it.

Have a good one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Sunday, August 13, 2017 - 02:44 pm:

I have a pair of axles I've yet to use, purchased a few years ago, came in white boxes with part no. T-2505 on the end.

The quality US made key stock from my standard assortment runs -0.001 / -0.0015 and won't fit. When I check the keyseat in the axle with gauge blocks it is cut -0.004.

You can tell from the markings that the keyseat was cut with a keyseat cutter (not an end mill), so deflection shouldn't be an issue affecting width. They were probably done with a regrind that had a little dusted off the sides to clean up the corners or one they had made for some special purpose. Standard face width tolerance on what I have here shows +0.0000 / -0.0010.

It's not the easiest solution, but the more correct way to do this would be to skim about 0.002 off each side of the seat rather than file down the key.

(Message edited by Wmh on August 13, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Sunday, August 13, 2017 - 03:01 pm:

Much appreciate the input, Walter. I intend on having the other pair's keyways milled per your suggestion after discussing this issue with Snyder's.

Unfortunately, placing a completed Ruckstell on a mill table would be an interesting endeavor at best !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Sunday, August 13, 2017 - 03:06 pm:

And just exactly what part of your statement did I take, Scott ?
"Let me apologize for any information or advice that I may have given you that you did not ask for. I would say to be sure to ignore it, but in fact, you took it. There's gratitude for you."

Chill Pill - Buddy !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Sunday, August 13, 2017 - 03:40 pm:

Yeah, that's no fun. I wouldn't say it's impossible, but your machinist buddy would have to be a lot more accommodating than me! The r&r time on the axles would probably be less than making the setup.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, August 14, 2017 - 07:33 pm:

To the top - no one else here has replaced axles recently (6 - 8 months) ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Shirley on Monday, August 14, 2017 - 08:05 pm:

Why not take a .002 over key, if it's a snug fit in the hub, and mill it to a step key that's a nice fit in the shaft and hub. With a vice set square on the mill it should only take minutes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, August 14, 2017 - 09:46 pm:

That would be completely doable IF one didn't ever have to attempt a "field" repair unless you kept spares in the tool kit.


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