At approximately what serial number did the 1909 Touring body switch from the 2 hole front body mount to the 3 hole configuration? Did this change affect both Aluminum and wood bodies at this same time?
My Oct 1909 Touring has the two hole mounting on one side with two holes in the body on the other.
I'm looking to replace the missing one if anyone can help.
I'm not saying that's what it is, but the bracket shown looks just like a standard body mount bracket that you'd see riveted to the outside of the frame rail. Hard to tell without there being a way to scale it.
I am not a 1909 expert, but am very interested, and have looked at several up close over the years, as well as hundreds of photographs. I have had that same thought about that two-hole bracket for years. I have not had a good opportunity to actually compare those brackets side by side, however, by my eye, they look alike. I believe that the early frame bracket is nearly the same as the frame brackets were throughout the '10s (they did change slightly over the years, especially later). It would have made sense that the early body bracket be made off the same jigs.
As for the timeline on them? I recall a past discussion where evidence was shared (by someone else) that the three bolt bracket began at some date, but empirical evidence showed many cars using the two hole brackets much later. Just knowing how Ford did things, and handled those changes during the brass years in general. I would think the different body suppliers began the change at nearly the same time-frame. However actual delivery times probably varied by a couple months where both types were being used. Empirical evidence is always somewhat suspect. A hundred years can wander through a lot of changes, repairs, and modifications. Many of the surviving '09s have been resurrected using bodies and engines that may have originated several months apart from each other. Many of the cars we get to see have reproduction bodies, or even original '10 bodies on them. I know that in a past discussion, a few two-bolt-bracket bodies are on cars claimed as later than a few cars with three-bolt-bracket bodies. However, I never saw enough provenance to rate those claims.
I think any '09 especially, and '10 also, that has original together body, engine, and frame, and is reasonably properly restored or maintained, should be especially noted. Front axle, rear end, and sheet metal may be asking too much these days. But if truly original, should also be noted.
Any car properly restored close to correct, should also be admired, desired, and seen, often. With some reasonable nod to what level of correctness has been achieved or maintained.
I personally know two people that each "restored" a '10 to a high level of correctness. One started with an engine block, the other with an original body. I knew them when they were carrying the cars home from swap meets, piece by piece. Both cars are fantastic. And either one could be used as a guide for another car's restoration. I admire that, would encourage that, and wish I could afford to do that for a '09 or '10 myself. About half the model Ts I have restored, were done that way, but were later cars/trucks.
That is my take from what I have seen, heard, and looked at, over the years.
Gail Rodda's Ref books have detail, his The 1909 Production Model T booklet. Lang's sells these.
Tony's front 2-hole bracket is correct. No part number cast in.
The rear 3-hole brackets also cast, and have # 4495 cast in.
The body carriage bolts used have extra large heads, 3/4" or a bit more. And dia. is 1/4".
(Message edited by Dan_Treace on August 15, 2017)
Cast? Interesting. Were the early frame brackets also cast?
Thanks Dan, I missed it when I looked.