Colonial T What am I ? Tarrant Dalgety Davies Fehon

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Colonial T What am I ? Tarrant Dalgety Davies Fehon
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 12:40 pm:

Hello
Can anyone tell me the maker of this door Door


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 12:48 pm:

The following is a number stamped into the support under the front seatDoor


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 12:49 pm:

This is also in the same location


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 12:50 pm:

Another mark under the seatDoor


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 12:56 pm:

And finally the number stamped under the door . It looks a bit hard to read so it is 597 as per the number under the seat Door


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 01:03 pm:

Before someone asks .The hinges and lock were cleaned and painted by myself .The rest of the grey paint is original ,as is the chalk writing which looks like H H circled


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 02:56 pm:

Not like any Ford I have seen. Looks more like a GM product, maybe Chevrolet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 03:16 pm:

Erik - Not to answer for Hans, but altho I do not understand the subject title of this thread at all, I do recognize the name "Tarrant" as the name of an Australian company that built Model T bodies in Australia during the "T" era,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 03:52 pm:

Hello

I should explain more rather than assume for the majority.

This is for an Australian Model T
.
In Australia Ts are not the same animal as the USA

Local companies imported chassis and built the body
.
As far as I know ,anything you want, any colour, and will even paint it black, if you must have it

This question is more than likely, but you never know ,going to be for an Australian to answer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 03:55 pm:

One more thing I have taken for granted for the majority.
Tarrant ,Dalgety etc are the body builders/agents/retailers of the bodies/cars


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 04:13 pm:

One for the Ford GM rivalry.
This door may be for the retailer Tarrant with a body built by Holden
Holden went on to become owned by GM, and the maker of GM cars in Australia, so this is a Ford with a GM body
Some (Ford Lovers) say Holden stands for just Hold'en (holding) together


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vern (Vieux Carre) on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 06:27 pm:

Hans, welcome to the forum. Your relic looks more like craftsmanship art, than a door, not having the rest of the T.
Vern


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 06:48 pm:

Welcome Hans S, to the best world-wide site for model T Fords of many stripes and colors.
I love the Australian versions of model Ts! However in no way could be considered an expert. We have several regular posters on here from Australia and New Zealand that have such cars. They often post a little later (technically tomorrow morning) from our evening posts. I always look forward to their many postings of their projects, and rallies. I love the photos of the different cars.
Speaking of which. How about some pictures showing more of the whole car you have? As much or little as that may be? I see a door, and part of a seat frame. I have restored American cars starting from less.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 08:13 pm:

Hans, can we have a photo detailing how the door skin is attached to the frame, and how the skin is rolled over the top of the frame? What little you show likely rules out Duncan and Fraser as the builders.
More photos of the rest of the body would help. Holden bodies for Tarrants have particular windscreens, unique steering column to dash brackets and other less obvious features. Is the fuel tank suspended under the spare tyre carrier? Does it have a vacuum tank on the firewall?

I am not so familiar with other body builders.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 08:52 pm:

Doesn't look as if Hans has much more.
It is/was a Holden body,

Stamped numbers in wood, quick release hinges.

Here is what is would have been.

HB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 10:42 pm:

Hello and thanks to all
To answer a couple of questions first
For Allan

DOOR SKINS etc
I have seen a number of pictures of the car above, but not of the wood frame, and the door inside and out, detail for detail are the same, but for one point . On my doors the check straps are missing on both of mine but were there based on vacant screw holes.
One of the detail for detail points Allan will know of ,and a zoom in ,on a picture of the car above door I have seen, seems to show, is the L shaped strip used to hold the skin to the door. It can be seen in the picture I listed above, where I show the number stamped into the bottom of the door

.
Back later I have something to do


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 11:48 pm:

Here is how I will answer the rest of Allans question, and will explain, what does he mean by both ,when I mentioned the check straps.

Buy chance I got a body .By chance I got a second body . By chance they are detail for detail twins.
I also got a set of 4 doors which are a match to the first two

If it was all that easy, I would not be asking for help .I have not found a picture of my two cars and set of doors I have . The above car is very close but.

My two bodies are missing the cowl and the Bonnet Answering the questions about Vac Tank etc needs the cowl and bonnet and the windscreen also missing. The car above ,has a cowl depth that looks to be about 35 plus cm, firewall to door. Mine is 28 - 30 cm, when I put a body on a chassis and lined up the frame holes to the chassis
The above ,car in a picture I have seen, has the same rebate to the bottom of the tub next to the door for the rear guard to slot into Looks like the body was a touch too wide for the guards to sit right without a notch into the tub

Both mine had leather covering the back of the front seat but this car is part leather to about the top 20 cm .
Back of the front seat on mine is made from 3 sections of tin .Two narrow sections for the curve each side of the seat ,and an almost full body width centre section

Another by chance is recently on ebay a mid blue car was sold and the cowl on that car looks the right depth firewall to door and a close match if you only look at the panels camoared to the above car. So the only car I have seen in the 3 months I have had both bodies and internet searchs since, showed up when I lost hope, of finding a picture
There is a but with this blue car .Hoping not to tread on toes ,and throw myself out with the baby, and the bath water ,the car has variation to mine . If you ignore the front doors (don't ask why) ,when I am sure, you will do a completed listings search of ebay, the rear of the back seat, looks like the seat sits on a shelf so not the same The bonnet windscreen and cowl I don't have and cant say anything about


To get to a question I should have asked at the start ,when I loaded pictures, and if I did not load a picture of the door ,is if you only had the numbers to go by , what is it from ,and what does it tell you about the car ,such as maker,year etc

Thnks for any help Hans


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 12:19 am:

Before I forget this because I am thinking of myself

As a source of information and so on but not visiting every car site out there, but quite a few ,and as a person with another old car,I will say this site is probably impossible to beat and those who set it up ,should never pay for a drink,( is that howls I hear) if a T person is present

Certainly it helps that there are enough cars around ,to have a lot of people who will help ,and a demand for parts, so companies making parts and wanting your cash .

The bad words "its only a T" can only be said till you need a part ,then its thankfully its not a XXXXXX ,because I will never find the part, or need to sell the house and rob a bank or two to get it made

So long after it was new and Henry's "Peoples Car" it continues to allow it to be a peoples car that can be a Trailer Queen with the best of them and break down with the best of them


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 12:55 am:

Hans,

It really would help if you could post some pictures of the actual bodies so we can actually see what you have.

A picture is worth a 100 words as they say.

These bodies vary as there is both a low radiator version and a high radiator one to start with and the design also changed as well.

The doors don't have check straps the hinge has a built in stop to do the job. This was a popular hinge used by the body builders of the day.

I notice you are in Victoria.

You should contact the members of the Model T Ford Club there and look at some of the restored and original cars in person. That way with your measurements you can determine if any are the same as yours.

No one from America has a lot of information on these cars.


Even those of us in in Australia are battling with all the different versions that have survived.

You say you are missing the cowl, but do you have a firewall panel? If there was a Vac tank there should be evidence on the left side of it.
Also the chassis may have evidence of a tank at the back of the car.


It is even possible your body is not from a Model T but from one of the other makes Holden made bodies for.

The Model T I posted the picture of above lives only a few Kms from me as a matter of fact I will be in its garage tomorrow afternoon, if you want me to check anything let me know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 02:38 am:

Hi Peter

I have nothing past the front door, so cant even say if it was a high or low, and it seems I am missing the most important part ,from what I see on all the cars. The rest of the car, is minor details for a lot of bodies.

I only got the bodies so cant check anything as far as a tank

What I can say is ,there is no hope of any sort of tank ,under either the front or rear seats.

The front seat has the most room, but you would need to disassemble the timers ,to get it out with no sign one was there, even if it was just for a 10 ltr tank

NO marks on the seat area to show the seat was ever lifted to get to a tank

I will say looking at the work involved in the wood, I am glad I got the bodies ,with wood that needs almost nothing except the bottom chassis timber replaced

The bodies are definitely for a T .The holes in the chassis member ,line up with holes in the T chassis , and a sheet of tin is curved to go over the rear cross member hump.

Then if that is not enough, there is the impression of the body mounts, and frame on the chassis wood members.

Have shown pictures of parts of the car to a Vic T Member ,and even he came up ,with a pic of the above car ,but its not that car

I have period ads you don't see on this site, or the net ,and photos you will not find on the net, and my two only match the blue one, I mentioned above ,but it has seat issues I mentioned and again will say ignore the front doors on that car.
I will say that car was rewooded

As far as pictures of the body ,I diss-assembled both of them . Match sticked all the holes ,attached brace timbers to split timers. replaced a couple of timbers per car and packed everything for each car into the rear tub and stored them ,except for the chassis timber member, which I got today, and will template the old ones onto and store away. Cant do a thing with them till I get a cowl, plus I have another project ,and my Old Girl used as a daily driver, and its old parts failures to contend with, plus it is shortly due for a B service, and there is a lot of stuff in that service, to take 2 days to do ,4 days if you count smoko at will ,I have had enough for today ,and so on.

Hans


Hans


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 02:58 am:

Hi Peter
I forgot to say thanks, for saying you will look at that car for me , but I think of all the cars there are pictures of, the most pictures are of that car,and nothing you cant see, without ripping some leather hear and there. Hmmmm doesn't want an excuse to re-upholster does he? Would look better in black Crocodile skin. Fluffy dice would finish it off just nice . Would not be out of line here, and all original. Afterall you just had to ask here ,and old man Tarrant would say, you got it baby .No Henry to tut tut over. Probably where Pimping a ride originated ,right here in Oz. Maybe that was the shonky work referred to by French( I think it was) ,and the Croc skin pushed Henry over the edge. Can picture him laying into a Model K ,and blaming the croc skin

Hans


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 03:49 am:

I have one more question that's just a detour to Wagga on the way to Sydney for this posting

With no wood kits like our friend over the bilabong can buy , how many cars have been taken from rotted wood to Club Registration in the last 20 years . Being an ex Chippy I can say that is a lot of work and ten times that for a pen pusher

When I was looking for a car ,I saw so many cars of all sorts that were stored in the late 50s, sold in 70 and stored another ten years, and so on till I arrived. Probably they sold ,and are back in storage in a new location. Throw in a one of a kind car here, that is 90 % complete for metal parts, of which 20 % are scrap metal, waiting for a ticket to China ,and you have one hell of a job, or just cashed in your Super, and months to live, so blowing the lot.

Hans


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman, New Zealand on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 04:23 am:

Hello Hans,

I am looking at a New Zealand made colonial roadster (we made bodies locally here too). I am interested by your pictures as the door construction method looks similar to the body I am looking at here.

The door skin attachment method is very similar /same. A strip of metal is nailed to the door wood and the outer skin is folded over this and crimped so that no nail or fixing is visible on the outside. End result is just like Allan's picture.

Kind regards
Adrian


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 05:05 am:

Hans, I have a later model Tarrant tourer with the Holden body.It differs from that photographed by Peter in that the windscreen has nickel plated cast brass pillars which follow the side of the cowl straight up. Otherwise, the bodies are almost identical.

A few things in your posts point to the body you have as NOT being a Holden body for a Tarrant car. They did not have door check straps. As Peter points out, the hinges are self limiting. Also, the rear tub on Holden bodies is one piece, seam welded at the corners and finished flush. I have yet to see a Holden body with reliefs in the side panels to accommodate the rear mudguards. I have a Western Australian body in my workshop which has those reliefs.

I will check my car for numbers stamped into the woodwork like yours, but I am confident I would have noticed them during the restoration if they were there.

The "Dalgety" cars were fitted with bodies supplied by Duncan and Fraser. They have the three piece rear tub, with joints concealed under a rolled in narrow bead on the back and side panels.
But, Duncan and Fraser made doors by first nailing FLAT pieces of body metal to the outside face of the door frame, and the door skin was folded around this. You see no nails on a D and F door.

We need more pictures!!!

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 09:58 am:

Hello Adrian

The way the door skins fit, to me are a brilliant idea. It allows you to slide the skin, up and down side to side. Up at this corner, and down at that, to sit them perfectly flush with the body, all the way around.

I have another door ,I will save for another post, that you may like, and I would like to know ,who made that one. Will try to get to it tomorrow, but for certain this week, so check back for a new topic

I have a couple of other thoughts, that may get me banished by the Colonial Body Boys, so get back to see thrown me out ,with the baby and the bath water. For now ,I will see if I can find some pics ,of the NZ bodies ,to see if you will in fact, be helping to throw me out
At a minimum ,if I am wrong, and a good chance ,because I know less than most of the US T Boys ,but at least put an issue to me, to rest .

Hans


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 10:42 am:

Hello Allan

I did not play with the doors, to check if they had an inbuilt stop .Mine are just a shadow of what was .and screw holes . Could be an Old Man Tarrant saying ,you want it, no problem, or a later modification.

I would argue a case for a later Mod if it was not stock

Here's why ,push on those doors ,and that is a lot of force, going into the body frame. I can see it not being too hard to snap a door off. The door timber frames, where the hinges mount ,are no much thicker, than the ones on the side of the door frames . Check them out for those hinges ,and you have lost a lot of strength. Ask any Chippy ,if that was in a house, holding the roof up ,if he would stand under it . With a strap to the door, anchored to the back of the front seat. your 100% closer ,to me standing under it, if it was a house.

The pictured car above, looks to have the same hinge, in other pictures I have, but blowing it up, it pixelate, so cant see if the body side of the hinge, is mounted to a plate. I will need to load pictures of the hinge to compare, and like you said, a picture is a 1000 words, .but at least one hinge is broken on my doors. If it is the same, and you look at how much of that plate is cut way, plus timber ,you can see where it will break.

Hans


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 11:01 am:

Hello Alan

Forgot to cover the Tub.

Looks to be one section. but will check for leaded seam or welding

Reliefs in the side of the tub ,to accommodate the rear guards, is only about 15 cm from the bottom of the tub ,after that its all flat/curved like the rest of the tub.

I just noticed ,where I start taking about the inbuilt stop ,its not clear ,I am going on to refer to the check straps, being a shadow of what was there

I want to take this chance ,to ask a repeat of what I asked above. Anyone know, the meaning of the numbers, I posted pictures of.

Hans


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman, New Zealand on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 05:10 pm:

The numbers are probably body serial numbers.
Back in the day it was usual to number all body parts with the body number - at least on other period cars. I would guess that is the case here too.
This would have been important as each part would be fitted specially to each body and in the factory putting the 'wrong door' back on a body would mean a bad job delivered to the customer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman, New Zealand on Monday, August 21, 2017 - 05:12 pm:

Other marks are likely those of a particular tradesman's 'signature' of his work, and/or of quality control checks done by an inspector.

The "HH" is probably the builders version of Ford's quality inspector's signature mark of 'OK' that became so famous


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 12:53 am:

Hi Adrian

Basically what I had thought it was, but never assume, and never stop checking ,once you know your right. A bit of the old, measure twice cut once.

No offence ,but I just said I trust what you said ,as its what I think, but I am going to check it out again ,so no trust in my own opinion either.

Still leaves us with what mark is for what.
I am not familiar with the "famous" marking so if Ford is famous for signature marks and this car is PRE Ford owning Ford OZ who stole from who.

If one mark is for OK then the guy needs a foot in the rear end. Sadly in this day and age, not allowed anymore
Will save my inspectors report of the inspector OK for another post Think the guys name was French ,and reported poor quality ,well if he lied ,to make excuses to come to Oz, then its two bad examples I have ,to back him up or just coincidence

IF I may ask a question about NZ I have asked of the locals . How many cars in NZ have been put back on plates in the last 20 years that were rotted wood frames

Based on what I see ,it would be one maybe two per state ,and they were probably still good for templates and recycle of wood parts. As I said, even as an Ex Chippy, that is one mega exercise in, I have endless days to while away . I am saying this, for the comparatively straight panels of the car above, compared to the earlier banana cars ,and your on a new exercise If you think of the dollars in time , and your short of time to do the work ,best to save up for a car you WILL end up driving, not pass on to someone else to store ,and maybe finish .

My twins are a breeze in comparison even with missing cowls, virtually nothing ,even if I had to make them, and that would be a cut a paste, of another cowl, as they are all so similar, its just a nip and tuck here and there

Hans.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 01:19 am:

Hello Alan

Tub report

Tub is one large pressed section . Not an expert on pressed metal ,but I am of the impression ,this is a marvel of its time .

From what I know, in WW1 ,the Allies had soup bowl helmets ,because they did not have the technology, to make the German style Helmets, which is now re styled ,to a version of what it is now standard for the military.

There is also, the German passion for make quality ,over quantity, if I am wrong.

This all brings me to something I have for another posting, and the origin of the Colonial body ,even if I am wrong about the technology, of the rear tub pressing


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hans Schick on Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 06:07 am:

Hi Adrian and anyone else interested

Adrian, I will have another door posting maybe tomorrow but within a week so plenty of margin for error and ability to keep my word

This is my last post and visit to this posting. I don't think there is more to be gained on this one.

I will be at my latest posting if someone has something

Thanks to all

Hans


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Saturday, August 26, 2017 - 04:41 am:

Too bad Hans stopped posting on this thread. Reviewing this one and his other one, he's clearly a lunatic, retarded, or has some other somewhat amusing mental deficiency. Can't spell, can't write a sentence, can barely complete a thought, and nearly everything he writes is incoherent gibberish. As I said, somewhat amusing, but not worth anymore of my time. Thanks for the laughs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Patterson. Australia. on Saturday, August 26, 2017 - 06:07 am:

Hans, get back here.
I can only visit this forum about once a week these days.
My Steenbohms (Sydney) built '21 tourer has similar numbers, using the same font, stamped in several places. It is the same 4 digit number stamped in each door, under each seat, behind the dashboard and on the floor board near the starter button. The door construction is also similar, BUT....the hinges are very different.
Rob


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