Bound up

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Bound up
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Stryker on Thursday, September 07, 2017 - 08:36 pm:

First thanks to everyone here who has helped me the past few days getting Elmer to come to life. Got the starter going and got it running this afternoon. Now it seems the bendix is completely bound up in the flywheel. The engine wont turn with crank, can't rock it in gear (at least engine doesn't move) and starter just thumps. Is there another solution, or do I just need to remove it? I know bendix first, but not sure if there are some other secrets to the job. Again, thanks for all the advice and guidance!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 07, 2017 - 08:46 pm:

You may not need to pull the starter. If the problem is a jammed Bendix that may be all you have to deal with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Stryker on Thursday, September 07, 2017 - 08:50 pm:

Is there a secret to getting the screw on the inboard side of the bendix cap off? My cap does not seem to have slots, just holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Thursday, September 07, 2017 - 09:45 pm:

Terry, a little while back I posted some photos of a simple trick tool I use. Perhaps someone more savvy than me can refer you to that post. Otherwise, backing off the four starter mounting screws will enable you to wriggle things around and a jammed bendix will free up. There is no need to remove the screws entirely.
The bad news can be that the ring gear is worn where the starter engages, and will need replacing. That means pulling the engine and trans.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 09:47 am:

A long thin blade or one of the self locking ones, that are great for placing the Bendix screws.







Ford Service book photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 10:38 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vern (Vieux Carre) on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 10:49 am:

My starter is off and I was working on it last night but I don't see how the Bendix can jam. An after the fact photo would be great.
Vern


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Stryker on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 11:35 am:

Dan, thanks for the photos. It looks like the clutch pedal has been removed - that makes it much easier, I guess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 01:03 pm:

When outs has jammed in the past, we tried the rocking technique and it never worked. We loosen the bendix cover without actually removing the starter and try rocking it again and it has always popped out.

Now we always remember to retard the spark lever, cranking or using the starter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Stryker on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 01:26 pm:

Robert - I *MAY* have not retarded the spark - not really sure what happened. You didn't have to loosen the starter? Just the bendix cover? That would be much easier.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Heavner on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 02:13 pm:

I have loosened the starter motor then rocked the T back and forth. That has always worked for me. Later it turned out I had a bent starter motor shaft and had to have that fixed plus a new Bendix and ring gear. In short I ended up having the entire transmission rebuilt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie, Memphis TN on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 02:30 pm:

Let's look a little at what's going on.

If the Bendix is indeed "bound up," that usually means that when the starter started turning, and the gear ran toward the flywheel, the starter gear and the flywheel gear met "tooth-to-tooth" rather than meshing.

Normally, rocking the car back and forth in high gear can cause the Bendix gear to retract.

If the engine won't turn with the crank, and rocking the car in both directions in high gear doesn't do the trick, the chances are at least 50-50 that it's something else.

In order to completely eliminate the possibility that it is what I described, loosening the starter mounting bolts part-way and wobbling the starter around, and turning the crank, can almost certainly free things up.

If not, I suspect there's something else amiss. And it could be simple, or it could be major.

The reason 'rocking the car' is useful, is that it turns the engine backwards, which you can't do with the starter or crank. If some thing is caught in one of the gears, or any one of a number of simple things are the problem, this may be the answer. Although, if something is caught in a gear, and you allow it to fall out by turning the engine backwards, that doesn't completely solve the problem - the foreign object is still in there, biding its time.....

Here are some quick ideas of what might be another cause of binding-up:

Water in a cylinder, causing "hydraulic lock." Usually caused by a leaking head gasket, probably not properly tightened, but sometimes by a crack in the block or head. Take all 4 plugs out, and see if the engine will then turn.

As previously discussed, a foreign object in one of the gears.

A rod or main bearing that has disintegrated and locked up.

A broken drum in the transmission, with pieces caught in the mechanism.

Any of a number of things wrong with the magneto - broken magnet, broken coil, or simply a screw out of one of the magnets.



Best of luck! We all hope it's the simplest of things!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Stryker on Friday, September 08, 2017 - 09:58 pm:

Sure hope it's just simple. It was running too good!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Stryker on Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 02:42 pm:

Peter, Removed the plugs this morning and verified there is no hydrolock. Had a bike do that with gas and it was hell to fix!

That being said, it still will not budge with the crank, so I am beginning to remove the starter. The bolts will not move yet. I have used blaster on them and let them sit a while, but still tight. Is there a secret to removing the slotted bolts? I have an impact screwdriver, but cannot get it fully on the bolt, and don't want to strip it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 04:51 pm:

STOP right there

you should be aware that if you remove the 4 screws on the starter you will be able to rock the starter and possibly free it up. You may also rock the starter and the bendix will damage the magneto coils requiring a teardown to replace (pull engine, partly disassemble, remove transmission, to replace a $250 coil assembly)

ONLY LOOSEN the screws, do not take them out unless the bendix has been removed. The bendix assembly is a very close fit in the bendix cover, at the end of a long lever arm. The amount of "wiggle" you'll get out of the starter with the cover on and bendix installed is minimal.

If you even suspect that you tried to start with the spark advanced then I'd be taking the bendix cover off and pulling the bendix. A quick stomp on the starter button will reveal if the starter shaft is bent...if it is, then you're going to be 1/2 of the way toward removing the starter anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie, Memphis TN on Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 06:43 pm:

The starters I have worked on (both of them) are held in place by hex-head bolts. I'm not familiar with a "slotted head" bolt on the starter. So, you'll have to be creative.

I agree with Scott, however, that wiggling the starter around without first removing the Bendix can make you big trouble. I agree with his suggestion that you remove the Bendix first. Or at the very least, be careful you don't wiggle it around too much. In fact, if your problem is a tooth-to-tooth mesh, it won't take much wiggling to free it.

And if you do end up removing the starter for whatever reason, replace it with hex bolts, so it will be easier to tighten and then remove again.

Keep us posted!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Stryker on Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 08:12 pm:

After Irma passes, I will get back to the starter. I have been involved in forums of different types over the years, but I do believe this is the nicest, most helpful one I have ever been involved in! Thank you!


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