The Vaporizer. Duey-C has questions.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: The Vaporizer. Duey-C has questions.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Monday, September 25, 2017 - 08:09 pm:

Last year I started in on a vaporizer equipped engine. Scoured this forum and found good info. Air leaks are the enemy of the vaporizer.
Ordered a few parts and the shipping cost more than the parts. :-) Not an issue.
Darned wore out ol' thing ran really good! Runs good still this year. Well, starting for the first time was a small issue but I wasn't on the crank sooo... Not an issue. ;-)

There's a fella close by (that's rare here, a different T I worked on 25+ years ago is several miles away and ignored) with an almost running TT with the vaporizer.
It's been 15 years since running OK.
We've talked on the phone. He's gone back and rechecked the primary inlet tube (he says it's good), pulled it apart and re-sealed the vaporizer plate and both ends of the primary tube.
I still think the repro primary tube has rusted out.
He even added a little sealant around the vaporizer outlet pipe to body connection but he said that connection is clean.
He says the innards are clean. He says the center drain bowl body and valve are original to the setup and not NH parts.
It'll barely run and he says it won't speed up at all. Even wide open on the throttle control rod.

I'll be heading out there in a few days, I suspect, to help him with four HOT coils in hand.

Could his 15 year old primary tube be plain steel and rusted out again/leaking?
Minnesota will rot out/rust the darnedest things with the mild (HAH!) humidity and wild temperature extremes.
Pretty sure the primary tube in the TT here is stainless from Lang's.

I was going to go after the choke shaft and the small openings on its underside which feed the primary tube.

Where are the bottom bowl gaskets supposed to be on this setup? Inside or outside the bowl.
The gasket is on the outside of the bowl on mine but I know there are questions on both sides of the bowl...

Ive been lucky with Lucky's vaporizer as he runs really good. Denny's TT needs my help and now I wish for yours if you would.
No, we're not gonna replace it with an NH carb and manifold.

Please, any other thought/notions for an almost running/no throttle vaporizer?
Thanks much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Monday, September 25, 2017 - 08:51 pm:

Duey, I've been a mechanic by trade for a lot of years, and my vaporizer threw one at me that I didn't see coming. The choke return spring that wraps around the choke shaft was broken. It was fine at idle, but when I opened the throttle, it would suck closed. Good luck, and keep us posted! -Ed


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Tuesday, September 26, 2017 - 09:05 pm:

Thanks Ed! Good thought.
Will do. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Tuesday, September 26, 2017 - 09:55 pm:

I changed out mine for a NH set up.. Just easier for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Tuesday, September 26, 2017 - 11:24 pm:

Check the float setting. It should be between 3/16" & 1/4"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, September 27, 2017 - 12:13 am:

I hear ya Tim! Not on my watch but I hear you. :-) Vaporizers matter. ;-) Hehehe!
Thank you Jim! From the top of the float to the machined flange, I 'spect.
Awaiting this man's call. He should be home in a few days. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Wednesday, September 27, 2017 - 09:36 am:

" He will be home in a few days" driving his T I suspect. Lol


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Wednesday, September 27, 2017 - 03:19 pm:

Duey:

Yes, from the top of the float to the flange. I ran a Holley Vaporizer for ten years before I switched over to the Kingston Vaporizer and the only time that the Holley didn't run well was when the float setting wasn't right. I did, however, replace a lot of parts, just to know what I was starting with. It is important that the brass seat that the adjustment needle sits in is good. I have also been told that any holes in the heating plate will prevent the carburetor from running smoothly. I have never personally experienced this as I installed a new plate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, September 27, 2017 - 07:55 pm:

Dallas, that off-handed comment was...shall we say...
WAY too funny!! :-) Hehehe! From the Brainerd lakes area to central MN? Yep, in a TT OR me in the junk I have here! :-)
Borrowing a line from Larry The Cable Guy, "I don't care who ya are, that's funny."

Jim, thanks for that. :-) Shoot, I should check the float in mine but he runs so darned good. I'll keep it in mind.
The adjustable needle's seat: I 'spect the needle and seat, if worn/deformed, would be almost impossible to adjust correctly.
Doggone it, I thought he mentioned them but I may be confusing them with the spray nozzle as he mentioned replacing it...
May I ask what prompted you to go with the Kingston?
On another note, the TT I have would never have started, the home-made heating plate and primary tube were both rusted out/off!
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Wednesday, September 27, 2017 - 08:32 pm:

Dieu I wanted to keep my vaporizer and I did buy new parts but even reading the books couldn't ever get good starts when cold. I


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Wednesday, September 27, 2017 - 08:33 pm:

Did keep the set up.. maybe I will get it back on the car someday.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, September 27, 2017 - 11:57 pm:

I just read this Tim. Understood why you switched and thank you for posting. Very interesting about the cold starts/or lack there-of.
Last fall, my cold starts were very good and I've lipped off about them here. I've now come to realize I'm very lucky with my derelict TT's vaporizer.
Hmmm. Many things to ponder and many cold starts to try on mine this fall.
Need to get my buddy Jim back here to crank that ol' bugger for some more cold starts.
Waiting on Denny's call.
Thank you guys.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Sunday, October 01, 2017 - 04:43 pm:

Just got back from the gentleman's place.
Not a TT tho he calls it a truck. A real nice 26-27 Roadster pickup! Maybe repainted long ago. Maybe. Not a cut-off.

Funny note. The HOT coils I brought along with; we were only able to cram one in the #4 spot (3rd one back)...
His four coils slipped in and out no problem. Wha?
He'll be calling Andy to have his coils redone.

It's alive. :-) Mmmmm, those out of slumber smells! :-) We filled his new garage with smoke! Runs OK.
EXCEPT it has almost NO throttle response.
Idle and just a bit more. Pull the control down, the throttle shaft moves but no more speed.
I was wondering about the automatic air valve (flap) being stuck etc. Nope. I can reach up and move it with a wire.
The air valve stop screw appears about the right length.
The choke shaft stops in the right place and stays there when open.
Notions? I'm lost.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Sunday, October 01, 2017 - 05:33 pm:

Good fuel flow from tank? Just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Sunday, October 01, 2017 - 06:21 pm:

There are two nearly identical bowl drains for the NH & Vaporizer - make sure it's the correct one - the Vaporizer bowl drain plug isn't drilled through like the NH.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Sunday, October 01, 2017 - 06:24 pm:

I realize you wrote about the "He says the center drain bowl body and valve are original to the setup and not NH parts" but I would verify that statement myself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Sunday, October 01, 2017 - 09:14 pm:

Restricted exhaust? Rodent nest in the muffler?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Monday, October 02, 2017 - 07:02 pm:

I hear each of you and thank you for the input. It is appreciated. :-) Long babble coming.
Dallas, it ran for quite awhile on a couple of stretches so perhaps the fuel was there for the taking. The rad went potty on the cardboard underneath, I gave him a thumbs-up but he grabbed the bucket. :-) Brand spanking new spotted epoxy floor in the garage! Slippery as hell.

The sound back at the muffler was fairly crisp and not muffled Ed, but it never crossed my mind. It's been a long time since running across a plugged up muffler and that time was a big GM sedan from the 70's. It only had half throttle and whistled like mad when revved up.

I neglected to offer a nugget of info about running oddities. I either forgot to type it out or my mind blocked out that the bugger got me.
That model T played a game of "Stump The Dummy" with me... And it won.
Ya know how it is. There have only been a few times when a piece of equipment (engine, hydraulic, electrical or what-not) has truly stumped me.
When doing it for a job (in my past lives), ya gotta get it right.

It runs best at about 1/4 turn open on the carb. Sorry for leaving that out. Old seat but new needle. Blew that bit too.
My TT is just about one full turn. Just checked him.

I'm thinking the float setting is too high like Jim suggested OR there are issues with the drain valve body like you talked about Steve.

He was so pleased to get it running! His wife's, grandpa's T.
Jeez I wish he'd call again wanting more help! Childish? Perhaps but I like to help. :-)
The waiting game will continue.
Thanks much. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Monday, October 02, 2017 - 07:44 pm:

I knew an old FBI agent in Saginaw Michigan. Doug Cannell. He always carried a bag of fresh potatoes, and a broom handle in the trunk of his car. Need to hold someone up for a while? Shove a potato as far as you can, up the tailpipe of their car. It'll take a mechanic a long time to figure it out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Monday, October 02, 2017 - 08:29 pm:

Hahahaha! I haven't heard of that in a looooonnnnggg time!
Why yes, yes it will! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C-west central, MN on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 01:55 am:

I Perhaps shouldn't but I'm going to update this thread IF YOU are interested in the vaporizer carb. :-) The Holley is the only one I know.
ALL comments welcomed.
Denny is in the same boat yet. He checked/reset the float level and still has a difficult to start late T pickup. It wouldn't go for him alone.
That engine isn't fully woken up yet and if the mix isn't right, we know it ain't gonna go.
It'll get there. I'll make sure of that. I need to get back out to his place but it may have to wait until spring.

Side note for my own learning purposes:
The mailman delivered a pretty nice (complete) Holley vaporizer manifold assembly lately and I've been putzing with it a bit.
I find the drain valve body holding the bowl on has the three holes on the upper half (total of 5 holes in the body) and two below.
An NH center drain body, I'm pretty certain.
#6216-21. This NH body drains the bowl, the spray nozzle area right above AND also allows gas UP for the spray needle to regulate the mix for the engine.
https://www.modeltford.com/item/6216-21.aspx


drain

drain2

No wonder the stiff needle was basically closed, the tip boogered up real bad and even bent slightly.

The two slots in the bottom of the manifold cover iron casting need to be there to drain the bowl when needed.
The threads in the drain valve body take care of sealing between the manifold cover and the drain body. #6216-91.
https://www.modeltford.com/item/6216-91.aspx
This is so the #6279 adjusting needle that's off to the side does all of the fuel mix adjusting.
https://www.modeltford.com/item/6279.aspx

The top hole in the drain valve body is really the hole in question, is this correct?

Has anyone ever tapped & plugged the hole in the top of the NH center drain valve body just to turn it into a vaporizer drain valve body?
We could drain the bowl as needed and yet the needle (off to the side) could adjust the fuel mixture without extra fuel sucking in/up thru the hole in the top of the drain valve body.
This new (to me) NH drain valve body has a top hole about .185" (about 3/16") and would be a great candidate for tapping to 1/4" for a plug to turn it into a vaporizer drain valve body.

Next notion: A loose #6278 vaporizer adjusting needle clamp nut (that the needle threads thru) provides another spot for possibly difficult fine adjustment?
https://www.modeltford.com/item/6278.aspx
The needle wiggles all over the place when screwing it in. A new needle with fresh threads would be a good thing also.

This vaporizer manifold cover MAY be a substitute for testing Denny's carb/manifold in the future.
If I am incorrect in any of my assumptions, please tell me. It may be difficult to hear but I do strive always... :-)
Please read this again. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell, Huntsville, AL on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 10:27 am:

I may be off base here, but I don't think that hole in the top of the drain assembly should make any difference. The fuel flow to the engine is regulated by the needle and atomizer. With the needle as bad as you say it is, the atomizer is probably out of correct size from the needle moving around. I would say get the needle and atomizer in good order before modifying any parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 10:46 am:

Yes, it does make a difference ! You can't adjust the mixture correctly with that drain in a Vaporizer - I have several.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 10:46 am:

Duey:

I am far from an expert, but here are my recommendations:

1) I have been told that a guy can use JB weld to fill in the worn threads then retap them. I began experimenting last month with a vaporizer that also had a wobbly adjusting needle clamp, but the seat was damaged and needs to be replaced. Therefore, I cannot verify if it works or not, but is worth a try. Lang's told me that when they encounter parts like what you and I have, that they toss them and don't bother repairing them.

2) In line with #1, Langs will sell you the cast iron body (the part that holds on the carburetor bowl) that has been sandblasted and good threads for $20.00.

3) Replace all of the needles, seats, vaporizer plate, and clamp nuts with new parts.

4) Buy the gasket set - it is cheap.

5) I use Permatex fuel resistant dressing on the gaskets and threads in the fuel line.
It is great stuff.

https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/gasket-sealants/permatex-permashield -fuel-resistant-gasket-dressing-flange-sealant/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C-west central, MN on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 10:16 pm:

John, I hear you. It's taken me months to get my head wrapped around the WHY of this. :-)
The "word on the street" ;-) was you cannot interchange the two valve bodies. OK.

I believe here's why. :-) Corrections always requested.
The Vaporizer carb sees the hole in the top of the drain valve body as a massive gaping hole for fuel to pour thru, be pulled from the bottom of the bowl and be drawn upstairs across the vaporizer plate instead of sipping the fuel from about half way up the bowl at the adjusting needle seat only.

Another notion (benefit?): If one has a bit of water in the bowl, the adjusting needle and seat are going to let it stay in the bowl bottom until we drain the bowl. :-)
The con: If the fuel tank is low and fuel feed from the tank is slow, we only get half a bowl of gas to run with. BTDT and didn't realize it at the time. :-/
That was a month ago.
The glass is only half full with a Vaporizer. Pessimistic ol' bugger. :-)
The glass is only half empty with an NH. The optimist.

On the other hand: The NH NEEDS the hole in the top of the drain body to get fuel or it gets no fuel at all. ?? I gotta go look at an NH casting.

A good thing: In the box with the Vaporizer assembly was a beautiful (extra!) 6213 adjusting needle with a good 4132 universal joint spider and a 4131 adjusting rod sleeve.
Cool. Thanks Dave!
Some wore out 220 paper and it looks great.
It will be interesting to see IF the adjusting needle's seat is good or destroyed. I can't see sXit in there with or without a light.

The pot metal (white metal/zinc?) universal spider was trying to come apart bad, so I helped it out of the OLD adjusting needle that WAS in the casting but that needle is junk.

Wait: Are the adjusting needles solid round or tube? If solid, the old needle can be repaired and set aside... Albeit a little shorter.
One more thing (Peter Falk as Columbo), what are differences between the 6213 later NH and the 6279 vaporizer adjusting needles?
Do I need to tag the needle as "Vaporizer only" if I repair it?

Steve, thanks much! Your guidance is always appreciated. :-)
IF I KNEW you have a sense of humor: I sure do love that Marquette (St Paul, MN) sliding luggage rack I was quite lucky to get. ;-)
Sorry, always in the back of my mind. :-)

Jim, I think the run time with your Vaporizers you've played with, allows you the title of Professor Of Gizmology.
Student Of Gizmology at the least.
You also have real time experience with these gizmos like Steve.
I'm barely a freshman.
:-)
You had mentioned a bad thread in the casting on another thread. If it is bad, it renders the casting almost useless. 1/4"?
If you wish to type about it please do. :-)

Theory: Vaporizer at rest. There's a nice "load" of EXTRA fuel waiting in the well. The area below and above the spray needle for starting.
Unless we close the needle to stop the engine.
Theory: Vaporizer in use/engine running. The well is empty except for the small amount being let in by the adjusting needle.

Corrections always requested! :-)
Thanks guys. :-)
Guess I like to type, huh.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daren Carlson on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 11:21 pm:

I had a vaporizer on my 26 that I assembled from parts. Started and ran really well but was short on power at the top end but I would expect that. I really liked it and would like to see more of them on running cars. I think it makes a great conversation piece.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C-west central, MN on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 11:41 pm:

Hehehe! They sure do make great conversation pieces Daren!
Umm yeah, it really does actually work. ;-)
Thank you!
The poor, maligned (Assailed with contemptuous language) Vaporizer. ;-)
Daren, if you come back to this thread, had you ever crank started your 26?
How'd that go?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Clements on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 12:58 am:

I have a Holley vaporizer on my 26 coupe. I have only had it for a couple of months. It will start warm on one pull of the crank. It will even free start some times!! I have not yet figured out the secret to cold starting it with the crank, but, I think it can be done. A few times it has fired when I first hit the key switch, after a few turns with the choke pulled, but not actually started.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C-west central, MN on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 01:17 am:

Son of a gun! I've wondered about such things Scott! Warm, free starts? You win! :-)
That Vapo-rub bugger of yours is dialed in real close!
I'm gonna stop lipping off about how nice my TT starts. Yet, I need more time with it.
Cool report!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Barker, Somerset, England on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 06:56 am:

My only T, a '26 Coupe I have driven for 15 years has a Vaporizer.
Unless hot, it needs 4 compressions with ignition off and choke pulled. Then it starts every time.
Without the 4 compressions it will not start.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daren Carlson on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 09:07 am:

I have crank started my 26 with a NH but decided that's what a electric starter was for, I do not recall if I tried to start it by hand after I installed the Vaporizer but I do know it started just fine with the electric starter when cold. One thing I remember is how much smoother she ran.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Clements on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 11:18 am:

I think the real key to good starting with the vaporizer is, you have to have good vacuum. Especially on a weaker engine, turning it over a few times, pulls oil up onto the cylinder walls and lubes the rings and that helps build vacuum. It requires vacuum to pull air down the pipe and fuel and air back up from the bowl to the throttle body. Any leaks in the system can really has an effect on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 03:46 pm:

I would totally agree with Scott based on my experience with the Kingston vaporizer. It had a very difficult time sucking up the fuel to get it started, but once it did start it ran quite well, but not as well as the Holley has. I've also noticed that the Holley runs better with the standard exhaust manifold then with the Atlas heater manifold that I had been running previously. My thinking is that the heating tube inside the larger manifold tube created some sort of restriction.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 03:47 pm:

Duey: the adjusting needle net is 1/8 inch national pipe thread.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 03:47 pm:

Adjusting needle nut, not "net." Darn voice recognition.


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