Dash panel / coil box configuration

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Dash panel / coil box configuration
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CHRIS SHEPPARD on Wednesday, September 27, 2017 - 05:31 pm:

I have a 1919 open car without starter, when adding starter I guess it will have the switch amp meter panel in the dash. My coil box is on the inside with the magneto/coil switch on the front.
What would be correct configuration ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, September 27, 2017 - 06:54 pm:

Light switch/horn on steering column, no dash panel, ignition switch on coil box. oil tail and side lights.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, September 27, 2017 - 06:55 pm:

Oh and it might have the non starter hogs head, early timing cover with the piece that takes the place of the gen mount.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, September 27, 2017 - 08:08 pm:

I wrestled with a similar situation on my 18.
Mark's correct about configuration. :-)
I chose to deviate from correct, holes had been drilled in the frame in the past so I put in the battery carrier,
installed a starter switch and as of yet haven't tackled the generator and gauge issue even tho the engine in mine has a generator that's grounded out.
A fresh battery will provide bunches of starts before re-charging tho. :-)
I use the switch down on the coil box.
Let us know how you proceed. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CHRIS SHEPPARD on Wednesday, September 27, 2017 - 10:49 pm:

THANK YOU FOR YOUR INFO, I HAVE THE CORRECT COIL BOX FOR NON STARTER WHAT I WANT TO DO IS ADD STARTER AND GENERATOR AND MINE DOES HAVE PLACE FOR STARTER AND RING GEAR. if I USE THE SWITCH AND AMPMETER ON THE DASH HOW DO I WIRE IN THE SWITCH ON THE COIL BOX ? OR DO I KEEP THESE SEPERATED OR WIRE MY COIL BOX INTO THE SWITCH/ AMPMETER ?
THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR HELP


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, September 28, 2017 - 07:48 pm:

So many ways to approach this. Several good ways, a few not so good. One thing. You really should not have both type ignition switches. Confusion, both for you and others down the road, would cause problems. There is no advantage to wiring both into the circuit. Besides, it would actually be very difficult to do without causing problems.
Many purists would say that an original non-starter car should be kept or restored as such. The truth is, there are not nearly enough of them left to represent what was back in their day a very common option. But the fact is, it is YOUR model T, and you need it to work for you.

A couple options for adding a starter. One, is to just add the starter, necessary battery and cables, starter button etc. Use the original coil box switch. This is easy, but presents one problem. Generator, and the attending ammeter. You could run without either of those, just maintain charge with a garage charger. This has worked very well for many people with earlier Ts that do not have the block provision for a generator. There is some inconvenience involved in needing to often recharge the battery, but most people find it is not much trouble, and attend very large tours that way.
The other best option, is to fully change that aspect of the car. Make it a full starter car. You may need to add a dash panel if your car does not have one. Install the full ignition switch/ammeter panel. And wire the whole thing properly just as if it was maybe a 1923. In doing all this? change the coil box to a proper starter car coil box. You will avoid having weird wiring and a few extra potential trouble points by doing that.
And what the heck. Leave the oil sidelamps in place. They look good, people like them, and they would be a minor indication of the car's true past.
Good luck, Have fun.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Thursday, September 28, 2017 - 10:13 pm:

I would suggest adding the dash panel, and changing your coil box to the starter type. Buy the necessary wiring, and a battery box holder, and you should be ok. The 1919 cars didn't use the same battery box or carrier as the later T's, so I doubt if you will find the holes in the frame for this part. Should you decide to add it, be sure you get the proper measurements.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Finchum on Friday, September 29, 2017 - 01:02 am:

model t picsmodel t picsmodel t picsmy 1919 open 'OLLIE' PO added starter many years ago. On the fence about a generator, He seems to run just fine though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Friday, September 29, 2017 - 01:39 am:

My suggestion, having done this several times.
Find an original accessory running board battery box.Mount near front of drivers side running board.
Use 12_volt lawn and garden battery.
Instead of stock type starter switch, have inconspicuous button in concert with solenoid.
Change nothing else.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, September 29, 2017 - 05:31 am:

Ummm, if the car is a 1919 and it came without a starter...will it have the necessary ring gear on the flywheel for the starter bendix to engage with? Especially if the hogshead would have to be replaced to mount the starter? Myself I don't know either, and this information could come in handy for one of my drawings. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, September 29, 2017 - 07:30 am:

Martin,

I always enjoy and appreciate your exploded view diagrams. Thank you for making them available to our hobby.

Bottom Line Up Front: For USA produced Fords -- On Apr 18, 1919 theT-400D (starter type) cylinder block was specified for use on all cars. It may have taken a day or two to implement that direction – or maybe a little longer especially at some of the Branch Plants. But shortly after that date depending on where the USA engine was assembled, all Model T engines that were to be placed in a Car (not a TT) had the ring gear installed, the starter hogs head, and the engine block that could have the generator installed. If the engine was not equipped with a starter and generator, then the block off plates were installed on the hogs head. And initially part # 3017-B was used on the generator blocks (T-400D). As the price and availability of the casting that held the generator came down it replaced the 3017-B with block off plates when a generator was not installed. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/153324.html



Additional information:

Both the non-generator block T-400C and the block that could accept the generator T-400D were both produced at the USA Highland Park plant from Dec 11, 1918 to May 28, 1919. Approximately 5 months of overlap when both the newer style and older style blocks were assembled into engines. And of course cars without a generator and starter as well as trucks were still produced long after that, but the open areas where the starter and generator would have been were sealed with a block off plate and/or block off plate and 3017-B initially.


The on line Encyclopedia and also Bruce's CD and book starting on page 559 has:
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc18.htm
DEC 11, 1918 Ford Archives
First starter-type engine made, #2,815,891.

DEC 21, 1918 Acc. 78, Ford Archives
Announcement of starters for closed cars on or about January 15, 1919, at $75.

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc19.htm

FEB 21, 1919 Acc. 575, Box 11, #724, Ford Archives
T-701C starter-type flywheel used on all cars.

MAR 15, 1919 Acc. 575, Box 11, #726, Ford Archives
Starter-type transmission cover used on all cars.

MAR 21, 1919 Acc. 575, Box 11, #726, Ford Archives
T-1773 timing gear cover plate, T-1761 transmission cover plate, made from two pieces from center of clutch plate stock spot welded together. T-1758 transmission cover front plate made from two pieces 20 ga. fender stock, spot welded together. (These are the cover plates used to blank the holes when there is no starter or generator.)

APR 18, 1919 Acc. 575, Box 11, #729, Ford Archives
T-400D (starter type) cylinder specified for all cars.

MAY 19, 1919 Acc. 78, #420, Ford Archives
Starters on some open cars (appeared prior to this date). New windshield brackets on electric cars; the old type with the integral lamp brackets to be continued on the non-electric cars. (Oil lamps were not supplied on the starter-equipped open or closed cars.)

MAY 28, 1919 Engine production records, Ford Archives
Last non-starter engine block made on this date. [Hap’s comment – this was the last one assembled at the Highland Park main plant, a Branch Plant may have assembled one at a slightly later date using the parts that had been shipped to them previously.]

JUN 5, 1919 Acc. 78, #436, Ford Archives
All cars to have starter-type engines; trucks to get whatever non-starter engines are left.


For Chris,

Some information on the dash boards for 1919 also from Bruce’s on line encyclopedia at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc19.htm


APR 30, 1919 Acc. 575, Box 11, #732, Ford Archives
T-6604 wood instrument panel for touring and torpedo specified in a letter to the branches.
T-7845, 7846 windshield bracket with integral side lamp bracket used on open cars without starter only. T-7845B and T-7846B bracket used with starter cars (has no oil lamp bracket).


AUG, 1919 Acc. 575, Box 11, #761, Ford Archives
Leather covered instrument panels are indicated on open cars and closed cars in early production. Of wood, they were superseded by metal panels by mid-1919.

Also note that the generator equipped cars were sometimes still assembled with the magneto headlamps see below:
AUG 19, 1919 Acc. 575, Box 11, #758, Ford Archives
T-7320 resistor made by Ward Leonard to be used at branches for headlight dimming, enabling the use of old magneto-type headlamps on cars with starters. Used until new design headlamps could be supplied to the branches.
Horns made by K-W, Heinze, Garford, Connecticut.
Upholstery for 1918-1920 seems to be the same.
Body parts are the same from 1916 to 1920.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Friday, September 29, 2017 - 10:15 am:

It is my understanding, that after Ford used up all of the non-ring gear flywheels, they had ring gears.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CHRIS SHEPPARD on Friday, September 29, 2017 - 02:49 pm:

Thanks to all for the information, I'm probably going to just add a starter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, September 29, 2017 - 06:11 pm:

Larry,

You are correct:

FEB 21, 1919 Acc. 575, Box 11, #724, Ford Archives
T-701C starter-type flywheel used on all cars.

For Chris,

A similar question of starter, switch, and wiring for a previously non-starter car was asked at the posting located at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/505845.html?1420054237

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Friday, September 29, 2017 - 08:29 pm:

Chris, this adds nothing to your question but if I may add a corroboration to one of Hap's posts "MAR 21, 1919 Acc. 575, Box 11, #726, Ford Archives".
Sorry about further thread drift.
Yes, add that starter if you wish to. :-) My body dictated I add the starter earlier this year on my 18 and am so glad I did.
For me, sometimes a fella should not crank an engine or things will get worse...
Hap, some interesting points and answers a question why my Sept 19 engine's generator block-off cover has "DE-laminated" in my 24.

Two piece generator block-off plate.

cover

cover


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 08:01 am:

Duey,

Thank you for adding that photo. If you have a chance and still have the other block off plates that covered the starter hole, please let us know if they are or are not made from two pieces of metal. If so, can you tell if the transmission block off plates are any thicker than the generator block off plates?

I would guess the starter block off plates made from left over scrap of the fenders (20 ga) would be thicker than the generator block off plates made from the scrap from the center of the clutch disc. But I don't know what the thickness of the metal clutch disc are -- so that is just a guess on my part.

Again thank you for the additional information and photo.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Saturday, September 30, 2017 - 05:22 pm:

Hap, the starter block off plates are each about .100" thick (about 13 gauge?). Definitely one piece.
The clutch discs That were in that 19 engine are .045-.046".

plates

Sorry about thread drift Chris.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, October 02, 2017 - 05:55 am:

Duey,

Thanks for the photo and information!

Chris,

If you have time please add if your starter or generator block off plates were solid or two pieces of metal tack welded together.

Good luck with your change over. For many of us the starter is a nice accessory. I could always hand crank the speedster that has a starter. But I find it is so much easier to just step on the starter. I can still "demonstrate" a crank start if I want to, but there is a good reason that Ford added them in 1919. And it has been since last century that I stalled a T in an intersection, that is another time it is nice to have the starter. And the older I get the less energy my "arm strong starter" seems to have. Maybe I need to check the ground on it?

That reminds me, be sure to use the 6 volt and NOT the 12 volt battery cables on the T. The 12 volt battery cables cause a loss of current from the battery to the starter. Please see Milt's excellent article on getting the 6 volt start to work properly at: http://milttheinstructor.com/Six-Volt_Battery_Performance.pdf Note if that doesn't work when you click on it - you may need to paste it into your browser's address bar and hit enter.



Also see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/566459.html?1440962104

Also, if you think your car has the original engine and body, please take a look for body number and body builder letter. Please see the forum posting “Home for the Holidays” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html) to see where and what to look for. If you find one, please let me know what it is. Thank you.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

(Message edited by Hap_tucker on October 02, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, October 02, 2017 - 06:01 am:

Same link to Milt's article on getting the 6 volt system to work well: http://milttheinstructor.com/Six-Volt_Battery_Performance.pdf

I'm not sure why it didn't work above?

Respectfully added,

Hap l9l5 cutoff


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