One Piece Closer To Authenticity

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: One Piece Closer To Authenticity
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Tuesday, October 10, 2017 - 11:28 pm:

Guess what came in the mail today from ebay? A 17" Canadian steering wheel to go with my 1927 Canadian Tudor. I have been looking for this piece for 11 years. Now I just need to paint it and it will be good to The last piece of the puzzle I need to get is the Canadian Rim Jack for the split rims. That piece is going to be harder to find.
go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 12:28 am:

Jim I used to have a bed which was assembled with screws with square holes for a square driver like in your photo. I had never seen that type of screw before (30 years ago) and assumed it was a Canadian thing as it was built there.
TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 12:49 am:

Robertson Fasteners were a "Canadian thing" that was presented to Henry Ford, but he never liked paying for an outside supplier.Ford of Canada did use them though!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 12:56 am:

Robertson screws are not the only difference between what was manufactured in Canada and the US. Look at the spider. It is cast iron not stamped steel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Peterson College Place, WA on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 01:22 am:

No, cast steel. Looks just like the one that came on my Fordor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 04:46 am:

Jim, do you have the special steering wheel nut and horn switch that mounts on it?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 08:06 am:

I think cast steel spiders were used right after cast brass spiders. I don't think they were a unique Canadian thing at the time. Pressed steel spiders were a later cost saving measure.
Some else should chime in here and give the dates.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 08:19 am:

My "Fordite" original from new recently broke into three pieces.

I have since found a complete wheel but at the moment fitted a period looking wooden wheel.

The horn button on the top is correct but a pain when reversing as your arm keeps bumping it


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 09:42 am:

Herb, Canadian spiders were cast right up to the end. My suggestion on the Fordite wheel, is don't paint it! Clean it up real good, and wax the hell out of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 10:41 am:

Larry - what is your recommendation for cleaning it up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 09:07 pm:

What is the compound difference between cast iron and cast steel? I assume that cast steel is less brittle. The spider looks like cast iron, though and is heavy enough to be.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 03:22 pm:

Jim,

The link posted below has some good advice on restoring the Fordite steering wheel.

I agree with Larry don't paint it what ever you do.

Best regards, John

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/200802.html?1301454438


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 04:31 pm:

Thanks for the link.

I don't have a parts book - does anyone know if the Canadian cars had different parts numbers? Langs classifies the steering wheel as 3503, but the number on the spider is T-902-D2.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 04:58 pm:

Canadian parts book for 17" spider is 3503-F and the whole wheel is 3503-E


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 05:22 pm:

Thanks, Frank, for the info. I wonder what the #T-902-D2 stamped into the spider means? There is a letter "A" with a circle around it, too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 06:43 pm:

Jim, parts had a factory number which did not coincide with the part number. I have a few Canadian Ford script tyre levers which I was told were not T because the number stamped on them was not the part number for the T tyre lever.
Just a little more to add to the confusion.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 08:56 pm:

Jim and others,

First the best news -- you do have the correct steering wheel assembly with the proper spider, proper 17 inch size, proper Fordite, and proper Robertson screws for a 1927 Canadian supplied part.
(Ref the MTFCI Judging Guidelines 7th Edition that has the Canadian supplement. For anyone with a Canadian T, that has many items that different from the USA car listed. It is available from the Vendors as well as from the MTFCI book store at: https://modeltfordclubinternationalinc.mysimplestore.com/products/judging-guidelines-7th-edition )

Jim - you asked if the Canadian cars had a different part number from the USA produced parts. In general they used the same part numbers and factory numbers when the parts are the same. But there are exceptions. Some are obvious - for example the belt driven generator initially used on the RHD cars, the horn button on top of the steering wheel, and other parts that were only used in Canada are not listed in the USA price list of parts. Some are a little confusing. Note below that the Canadian part number for the steering gear spider is 3505F which is the part number for the steering gear spider and rim in the USA (both for 17 inch rim).
And other part numbers are different also see below:

All the Price List of Parts scans below are from the MTFCI "Ford Model T Digital Library." It is available from the Vendors or from the MTFCI book store at: https://modeltfordclubinternationalinc.mysimplestore.com/products/digital-library-dvd



Note the #T-902-D2 that is a permanent part of your metal steering gear spider is the "Factory Number" for the steering gear spider (what I would commonly call a steering wheel spider today). That number corresponds to the Factory Drawing that along with the Factory Change cards specifies how the part should be made.

That 17 inch pressed steel steering gear spider in the USA is Factory Number T-902D. My theory is the Canadian one is T-902D2 to indicate it is significantly different from T-902D. But that is just my theory.


Note in the Jul 1927 USA Price List of Parts above that the same part has price list part 3503-D2 and Factory Number 902-D. But if you assemble the USA spider - part 3503-D2 with the USA 17 inch rim part 3591-C2 and 4 screws part 3502 the assembly is now USA part number 3503F and USA Factory Number 995B.

Compare that to the Apr 1927 Australian Price List of parts which does NOT show the Factory Numbers but is still very informative.



Note they apparently used the USA illustration of the "spider" as it has the rivets for the pressed steel spider but that was not offered through the Canadian or AU Ford Dealers.

The items are compared below from the 1927 Price List of Parts:



I couldn't find my 1925 Canadian Price List of Parts -- it is still in box in the garage (we had the floor in my office redone and I am still moving stuff back. But I have a few pages saved on the computer from it. Unfortunately is does NOT have the Factory Numbers listed)

Below is from the



My observations so far:

Clearly the USA screws were slotted and the Canadian screws were Robinson screws even though they had the same part number. I wondered if the Factory number was different? Checking the 1925 Canadian Price List of Part it does NOT list any factory numbers. But the Jul 1922 Canadian Price List of Parts did list factory numbers. They used the same factory number as the USA list for the rim screws.

My "THEORY" is I need to get some sleep and look at a lot more items that hopefully we can have the Canadian and USA Factory Numbers for.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Friday, October 13, 2017 - 09:37 am:

Hal: thank you for researching and sharing that information with all of us. I have not purchased the 7th edition of the judging guidelines primarily because I never intended my car to be a show car and $50 goes out the window when you live on a single income and have 2 kids.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Friday, October 13, 2017 - 10:56 am:

Another important point to consider, for the Fordite wheels, they use a #9X7/8" oval head screw. DON'T TRY ANYTHING ELSE! Please excuse me if I have that size wrong. R.V. now carries those, and are the slotted type. You Canadian guys are going to have to do you homework for Robertsons!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, October 13, 2017 - 06:57 pm:

Jim,

I try to list the references and sources for them because some folks wonder "where did he get that idea from?" also to make it easier for folks that want to track down a copy etc.

I love the story of the adult son who came home to visit his Dad. He noticed his Dad had purchased a fishing boat and gear. And he commented, "Dad, when did you start liking to fish?" To which he replied, "I've always like to fish." And the Son asked, "Why didn't you do that earlier then?" And the Dad replied, "I'm looking at the reason."

Again, thank you for posting the original question as it helps me capture photos and other details that are not available else where.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Friday, October 13, 2017 - 07:59 pm:

Jim, your thread was cool to start with but now?
Wow. :-)
Great find by the way and thanks for sharing!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Erfert on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 12:49 pm:

Jim, thanks for the information as we also have a 1925 Canadian Ford Tudor (which was judged at the Montana tour) and I just checked the spider. It is as you have described and has the 902D on the back. Under the running board plate is "made in Canada" and also the horn button is on the Steering wheel. Thank you Hap for the additional info, I only wish I knew who restored our T. All I know is it was restored in upper Michigan and then was in Oklahoma until 2000. Always looking for information.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 05:39 pm:

My Tudor also had "Made in Canada" stamped in the running boards. The Canadian door handles and knobs are also different.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 06:06 pm:

Richard,

If you have a chance would you please double check and confirm that it has 902D on the spider which is for the spider used with the 17 inch rim? Or is the number possibly 902C on the spider which is the factory number for the spider used with the 16 inch rim? And also does your car have balloon tires or the clinchers? And do you know what the steering gear ratio is 4:1 or 5:1?

Sometimes I wonder why I don't just do crossword puzzles like normal folks.... But I really do enjoy trying to figure out when what parts were used when on the 1906-1927 Four Cylinder Fords.

We may have found a minor recommendation for the MTFCI Judging Guidelines. The Canadian supplement which is the major difference between the 6th edition and the 7th edition of the MTFCI Judging Guidelines for Canadian cars has the 16 inch size steering wheel listed for 1925 and the 17 inch size steering wheel listed for 1926-27. But checking the USA section the MTFCI Judging guidelines have a note for the 1925 model year cars steering wheel, "16 inch outside diameter.
The 17 inch diameter wheel was used with the 5:1 ratio gearbox."

I'm thinking perhaps that note need to be added to the 1925 Canadian section also?

And Bruce McCalley again for USA Fords shared at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1925.htm "The wheel spider was pressed steel and painted black. With introduction of balloon tires, the gear ratio was increased to 5:1. The steering wheel diameter was increased to 17” in January 1925."

And from memory [not as reliable as notes, documents, photos, or fossil evidence] -- I thought I read that for USA Fords, it was only the cars with the balloon tires from the factory that got the 5:1 ratio in 1925. If anyone can point us to documentation on that, it would be appreciated.

Again thank you to everyone for adding a lit more to this "stone soup" effort. [What soup? Please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Soup ]

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Monday, October 16, 2017 - 08:51 pm:

Here is a comparison of the original Canadian Tudor door knobs to the new stainless steel replacements. The Canadian knob, pictured on the left, was made of brass and nickel plated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Erfert on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 01:34 pm:

Hap, my spyder has 902 D2 and 17" OD wheel with 5:1 gears. SN C577270, woodspoke wheels 21" clinchers (4.40/4.50 X 21 Firestone). Has the original door knobs (as in the photo) and the horn button on the steering wheel nut.
Richard


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 05:45 pm:

Richard:

Did your '24 come with a 17" wheel? If so, I thought that was only available on the 1926-27 years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 06:35 pm:

Does the MTFCI Judging guides also deals with the UK differences from both Canadian and US Model Ts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Erfert on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 07:10 pm:

Hap, I have a 1924 US Made Tudor that is probably very original and it has a 16" wheel and 4:1 gears with 30X3 1/2 wood wheels, the 1925 is Canadian and that one has the 17"steering wheel and 5:1 gears. Haven't put that on my profile yet sorry.
I don't know how original the 1925 is as I don't know when or who restored it, but all numbers are correct and parts are all "made in Canada".
Richard


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 07:15 pm:

Richard,

Thank you for the additional information.

Jim,

Richard's Canadian Tudor is a 1925 per his posting above where he has:

++++++++++++

" By Richard Erfert on Saturday, October 14, 2017 - 12:49 pm:
Jim, thanks for the information as we also have a 1925 Canadian Ford Tudor ..."

+++++++++

But his profile does list a 1924 Tudor. I do not know if that refers to a completely different 1924 Tudor or perhaps he is referring to the same car but now knows it is a 1925?

The SN Richard posted above C577270 which falls in Jul 1925 listing shown below. (The 31 Jul date is the last serial number that month. Note -- they are also probably approximations, and different listing have variations.) But a very good chance that the engine was a Jun - Jul 1925 time frame or perhaps a little later. So if the engine was original to the car then it would be a 1925 and not a 1924.

The pages below were kindly supplied by Steven Miller and were sent to him in reply to a question he sent years ago to Ford of Canada when they still had their archives. Thank you Steven!





Note for USA produced 1925 model year cars that had the balloon tires -- they also came with the 5:1 steering ratio AND 17 inch steering wheel. USA cars equipped with the clincher tires came with the 4:1 and 16 inch steering wheel.

I have opened about 10 more boxes of books/files but I have not yet located my Jan 1, 1925 Canadian Price List of Parts. I suspect but have not been able to check -- that it will show a 17 inch spider and steering wheel. I have some scanned pages from it, and they do list the balloon rims and wheels for 1924 only. From the scanned pages they do not have anything listed as 1925. I would think a car assembled in Dec 1924 would be considered a 1925 -- but maybe that was not the case in Canada? If someone else has a Canadian 1925 or 1926 Price List of Parts if they would check -- please let us know what years they show the parts fitting and what date the Price List of Parts . And yes, the USA Jul 1927 Price List of Parts above shows the 17 inch steering wheel fitting 1909-1927. Remember Ford listed what was available and what would fit. And the 1927 steering wheel would fit and function on the earlier cars.

But if we can document that the 17 inch spider, steering wheel, and 5:1 steering ration was available in 1925, then we can recommend to the MTFCI Judging Committee that they update the Canadian Supplement to the Judging Guidelines to reflect that. done that way, then the Judging Standards, Canadian supplement, can be updated.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 07:36 pm:

Richard,

I type slowly -- so you posted before I looked at the posting again. Thank you for the additional information. Between the documentation we can locate and the fossil record of original or believed to be original cars we are learning more and more every day. Note, if anyone else has some correspondence sent to them by Ford of Canada, AU, NZ etc. please send us a copy. We never know what puzzle piece may unlock the information. That can range from scans of original bill of sales to 1950s or later letters from the Canadian archives when their archives were still running.

Michael

No, the MTFCI Judging Guidelines 7th Edition does NOT contain any English or European references that I am aware of. I’m sure they would gladly add them if they were made available to them (ok disclaimer – it is easy for me to say that. As I would not be the person doing that work, or printing those new pages etc.) But the 7th Edition did add the Canadian Supplement.

Note the 2 volume set of "The English Model T Ford" adds a lot of information especially about the English Ford. But also about parts that were made in England & Ireland and that were used in other locations. For example the drop frame parts. See Lang's https://www.modeltford.com/item/ENGLISHT.aspx

Funny while unpacking boxes this week I ran across a copyright 1982 version of the MTFCI Judging Guidelines. It was 51 pages back then. Now about 5 years cover the same number of pages. They also have a speedster section (it doesn’t have to be black….),a paint section, and they have reprinted the excellent series “All The Same, HuH!!” By Gail Rodda.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 02:26 am:

Steering wheel cleaned up, spider painted, and installed..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Erfert on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 04:39 pm:

Jim, sorry to have taken over some of your post, I have been trying to get more information about the Canadian Fords and our T itself. This is all great information and I hope we can continue digging.
Hap, I added the '25 to my profile so now have that straight. I have three books of copied info on Canadian Ford and have just read the first 5 pages of book one. Hope I find more info as I read further.
I will post what I find in the future.
Richard


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 05:25 pm:

Richard:

Would you mind either scanning in the pages that you have copied or letting me know what the books are so that way I can purchase them? Thanks.

No apologies necessary - we are all learning more about the differences in the Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 08:42 pm:

Richard,

Ditto what Jim said -- would you please share with us the title, author, copyright if known?

If either of you or if anyone else would like a copy of Kevin Mowle's "Only in Canada - Eh?" which was in the Sep - Oct 1988 "Vintage Ford." Our MTFCA allows us to share those articles for free for non-commercial use, to help promote our club and our hobby. He is focusing on the 1920-1922 years, but many of the observations run a few years earlier or later. Just drop me a note with your e-mail address and I will e-mail you a copy. You can click on my name and it brings up my profile and my e-mail address is the third line down. Or you can send your e-mail address via Private Message. But I need an actual e-mail address as I cannot send attachments via a Private Message (PM).

And yes, the goal is to learn more about the cars and how they were built.

Speaking of which, Jim - if you look on the engine side of the firewall just below the radiator support rod, you will possibly see a letter and a number. If you do find one, that letter will tell you which Canadian plant the body was dropped onto the frame. And if the body is original to the car, the it tells you which Canadian Assembly plant built the car.

F for Ford City -- Ford Canada's main plant
M for MONTREAL, QUEBEC
T for Toronto, Ontario
W for Winnipeg, Manitoba
V for Vancouver, British Columbia

Richard the chances of a 1925 having a stamp is much smaller. If you find one please let me know.

See the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/196599.html?1299852394 for additional details. (If you are reading this and you have an Australian car most 1926-27 style have an "A" in that same location. USA produced cars put the Assembly Plant letter and info (sometimes a date) at a few 1925 Assembly Plants and several 1926-27 Assembly Plants. The USA stamped the Assembly Plant code on the metal sills that held the front floor boards. And they were not consistent on which side etc. If you want more details on that let us know and we will locate it again.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 11:36 pm:

Hap:.

The number on the cowl IS F12632. If you are curious, the engine and frame numbers match: C735763. The stamp on the engine looks like it was manufactured March 9th of 1927.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, October 19, 2017 - 05:54 am:

Jim,

Yes, thank you so much for the additional data. I assume that the "stamp" on the engine is round with the letter "E" representing the year 1927. And it is actually part of the casting. If so it is the date the engine block was cast and not necessarily the date the engine was manufactured. However, comparing the engine & frame serial number to the listing above, the serial number also falls in Mar 1927.

As we gather more information, hopefully we can fill in additional details on what changed when etc. And of course we need to remember that Ford often had an overlap when he used the older style parts during the same time that they were using the newer style parts.

Again thank you for the additional details.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Thursday, October 19, 2017 - 01:08 pm:

Hap:

Yes, the stamp is a letter E. There is a number 9 and some blob above the E than I cannot make out.

It seems like it is easier to find information on when the car was made than when it arrived in the United States. I wish, I wish, I wish that I could trace back when it arrived in the U.S. The furthest back that I can trace is that Mike Yaekel from Bellingham purchased it at the Portland Swap Meet back in 1992. When I called him, he couldn't recall who he bought it from or any other information beyond where and when he bought it. Washington DOV only keeps records for seven years, so I guess its history is going to remain a big mystery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, October 19, 2017 - 08:40 pm:

Jim,

Most of us do not have the complete owner's history on our cars. At the time of purchase most folks don't think it is important. Or as you go back further in the cars history, when it was just a used car -- folks didn't car who owned it before them.

Note, "IF" the car was not restored after Mike Yaekel purchased it, then you may have a slim chance of tracking down a little more information. You could try contacting some of the Model T Folks in the Portland area to see if any of them remember the maroon colored Canadian Tudor. The MTFCA chapter in Portland has a webpage at:
http://www.rosecitymodeltclub.org/ maybe someone will remember it?

If it was restored by Mike Yaekel or someone after him, then unless they painted it the same colors, it is highly unlikely someone in the Portland club would recognize the car.

And of course someone may have brought the car to the Portland swap meet and it was not from the Portland area.

Just a thought. And the cost of checking it out is low.

Good luck on your search and that is a nice looking T and a great family photo on your profile page. You can't start them out too young.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 11:10 am:

I hope this is not off topic exactly but I wondered about something that was in the older thread that was linked to from here. It has to do with why the Fordite ring turns my hands black when driving when it is damp out and yet does not leave any trace at all on white gloves all the rest of the time. I find it hard to believe that if something comes off so easily when wet that it does not come off at all when dry and that just getting more of it off will stop this. I think the fordite needs some kind of sealer or it will just turn my hands black again when I drive in the rain and I don't think it matters how much buffing and polishing I do on it. Am I missing something?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russ Furstnow on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 01:59 pm:

Hap,
The June 1925 Ford Service Bulletin, Canadian Edition states that the 5:1 ratio steering was replacing the 4:1 ratio box. My guess is that the 17" steering wheel accompanied the 5:1 ratio change. When this change hit production is unknown.
I hope this helps,
Russ Furstnow


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Monday, October 23, 2017 - 03:55 am:

John, not to forget the odour that these wheels give off. It stays on your hands longer than chopped up onions!!
Alan in Western Australia


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