Ford N questions

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Ford N questions
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 09:05 am:

In the near future I will be trying to start a 1907 Ford Model N.
As I don't know a lot about this car I am looking for advice and information about the model N.
First question:
On the right side of the engine is a brass tank. one tube on the tank is connected to the exhaust manifold, two tubes are entering the engine and one is going to the back of the transmission. Are these oil tubes? how do this work??

Andre
Belgium





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 09:16 am:

That is the oiler. You may want to send a PM to Rob Heyen as he has an 07 N


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 09:18 am:

Also, check out the Early Ford website and forum:

http://earlyfordregistry.com/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Balough on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 09:26 am:

The exhaust gas pressure forces the oil out of the tank to the bearings. the crankcase should only have about one inch of oil in it, make sure the transmission has oil in the drums ( set screws in drums )also oil the lifters on the side of the engine. It looks like you are missing a band in the center of the transmission.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 10:58 am:

Andre,

As others state, that's the exhaust pressure oiler. The two oil lines attached to it are not supposed to be attached directly to the oiler, as shown in the photo. The oil is supposed to drip into sight glasses, then down and into the oil lines. The sight glass portion is missing on the oiler shown. The front oil line is also routed wrong. It's supposed to simply add oil to the crankcase, not provide oil to the front main, (although, that's not a bad idea) However, you don't need the oiler to work just to start and run the engine.

Before you attempt to run the engine, remove the pipe cap from the vertical pipe at the rear of the engine. This is the only place that the crankcase can breathe from and is supposed to have breather fitting on it. As it breathes, it also spews out oil, unfortunately that's somewhat normal.

As Bruce points out, the crankcase holds very little oil. I usually overfill it a bit. Normally, you open the bottom drain cock and add oil though the breather pipe until it just begins to run out of the drain cock. This assumes that the standpipe portion of the drain cock is still present inside the crankcase. I usually skip that and remove one of the lower bolts that holds the side covers on. I add oil until it begins to come out of the bolt hole. A bit too much oil, but the motor prefers it.

As for those side covers, it would be a good idea to remove them and have a look inside the motor. The NRS cars have hinged rods that can get in very bad shape. At least half the NRS cars have patches on the crankcase where a rod has come through. Be sure all the cap bolts are in good shape and have lock nuts on them.

The pipe plugs in the two transmission drums, (the middle and rear ones), are for adding gear lube, (as Bruce states). I use 140 gear lube. Others have their own recipe. Add some lube, then rotate the drum so that the fill hole is in the 4 o'clock position. Keep adding oil until it begins to run out when at 4 o'clock. Don't worry if you get too much, it will come out on its own when running, (wear old clothes).

That's all I can think of for now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 01:37 pm:

Is there somewhere a user manual for the model N as there is for the model T?

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 01:39 pm:

http://www.cimorelli.com/mtdl/pre-1909/default.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 06:01 pm:

Jerry, you mentioned 'hinged rods'. Do you mean that there is only one rod bolt and the opposite end of the cap is hinged to the rod? Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Balough on Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 06:12 pm:

Here is one of my rods from my S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 10:15 am:

That is interesting! It must make it a little difficult to get clearance accurate, especially if the rivet is not right. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 10:23 am:

Mike,

Yes, that's the thing, the rivet, (hinge pin), must be in good condition. I replaced all of mine, as it appears Bruce has done as well. You want it so snug that you have to force it open, (but still by hand). Setting the clearance isn't too bad a task. As Bruce's example shows, there is shim between the cap & rod.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 01:06 pm:

Please don't stop talking about the Model N.
I am learning and learned a lot already.
Question: How does the oil stay in the engine and the tank? Are there tricks and do's to keep the oil from dripping on the floor?

The ignition is working with a battery, but why are there a battery and a magneto stand on the switch?

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 01:23 pm:

Andre,

A proper N style switch does not have a MAG position on it. It has "B1" & "B2". Battery #1 & battery #2.

There are no seals to prevent oil from leaking out of the front & rear main bearings. On mine, I made a cap with an O-Ring in it that fit's over the snout of the front crankcase cover. It prevents oil from leaking out of the front. The rear main however still leaks, but not too bad. The open tappets leak some oil as well. As for the breather pipe spitting out oil, there have been many methods tried. I'm not sure any really work that well. The best method seems to be using a small can, placed over the top of the breather pipe to deflect the oil down, and not all over the engine compartment. I just tie a rag around mine. It doesn't really start to push out oil until the engine is running at higher speeds.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 09:36 pm:

Andre,

The early Fords used dry cell ignition. Because they were not rechargeable cells, you needed to carry two sets. One to get you where you wanted to go (B1)and the other to get your back (B2). I believe the No 6 Ignition battery was used. McMaster-Carr carries a look alike modern replacement:

no 6


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 10:31 pm:

Andre,
Congratulations on your project. Model N (and R&S) are a delight to drive. Like the future Model T and period K, the N is sprite and quick, with typical Henry Ford designed simplicity and great horsepower to weight ratio.

This "Cycle and Automobile" article gave one of the first reviews of the then new Model N. The N shown in the article is the same early N used by Ford to demonstrate and test prior to production, so there are some differences from the production N. Some specs and diagrams are included in the article. At the end of the article is a description of Henry Ford giving the writer a demonstration drive.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ze0hw1ttwszewwo/C%20%26%20A%20Model%20N%20Review%201906.pdf?dl=0


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 10:44 pm:

I meant to add, as mentioned, the original oil feeds went to the the middle of engine and torque tube. My N (#3) has a grease cup over the front main that I like. It acts as a temporary front main seal, and I presume adds some lubrication benefit. Your N has been altered and as mentioned, not a bad idea to run to front main. Interestingly, the 1906 K also had one oil line to engine, feeding at the front of the engine.

A person may wish to drill a hole or two in the middle "dam" separating cylinders 2 and 3. When oiling from the center of the motor, this was a method of keeping oil on both sides of the engine when going up or down long hills/mountains. However, if oiling from the front, there is no rear reservoir feed (transmission and magnets slinging oil) like on a T.

Keep us posted....
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 10:55 pm:

Last note. Unfortunately I've not copied the N owners manual, but I did copy this 1908 Dyke Model R manual. It may help:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wffjnrxjc3b4xxr/Dykes%20N%3AR%20Manual.pdf?dl=0


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Friday, October 13, 2017 - 01:32 am:

Thanks Rob and all for the information.

I will study this and will surely come back with other questions.
First question:
I suppose the low gear and the reverse are working on a similar way as on a model T. How do the high speed clutch work? I see no spring in the unit.
Setting the coils, are these set as the later Heinze coils?? These coils have two pins, a short and a longer one, and a contact point. Is the contact point the high tension output? Which of the pins is connected to the switch and which to the commutator?

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, October 13, 2017 - 07:46 am:

Andre,

You pull the side lever to the rear to engage low speed. You push the lever all the way forward for High. Neutral is in the middle. There is NOT a visible spring like you see at the rear of a Model T Ford transmission. Ref pages 32-33 of chapter 8 of "Pate's Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia." See also the posting at:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/628372.html?1459274045

Below are photos from Trent's Model N Ford Transmission and the Price List of Parts mentioned later below has two pages showing the transmission parts:





Congratulations on your new Ford! As other’s have mentioned the 1903-1909 Early Ford Registry (EFR) is an excellent group. They are a chapter of the Model T Ford Club of America (MTFCA) (yes – the same club that runs the message board we are reading). And it is also an Affiliated Register (i.e. world-wide chapter) of the Horseless Carriage Club of America (HCCA). I would encourage you to join the group “electronic newsletter option” which is the same price no matter where you live on the earth. You might also ask them to have you officially join Jan 1, 2018 as the dues are annual and there are only 2 ½ months left in this year. The Early Ford Registry has a few additional 1906-08 N, R, S, & SR pamphlets that are available on line. I thought they had a copy of the Ford supplied manual “How to Run the Ford - Model N and R” but I did not see it on the web site. It is included on the DVD that comes with Carl Pate’s book “Pate’s Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia.” That was supplied to new owners when they purchased the car. It discusses what to oil, how to start, how to drive, how to stop etc. It is normally available from the MTFCA store, but they appear to be out of them at the moment. It can be ordered direct from Carl at: http://www.earlyfordcars.info/ or from Vendors such as Lang’s see: https://www.modeltford.com/item/PATE-ENCY.aspx . Note Lang’s has several pages of Model N, R , S & SR parts. Many of those are unique to the 1906-08 cars. Others also fit the Model T – such as the rear brake shoes, front spring, front wheel bearings etc. But they identify those parts that fit both cars for you so you don’t have to figure it out for yourself.

Unless the car was driving and touring recently, I would encourage you to check things carefully before starting & driving. If I break something on my 1922 Model T it is a lot easier to get a replacement part than if you break something on a Model N, R, S, & SR Ford (unless it is one of the parts that also fits the T. ) To include the front axle set up. My Dad almost turned our Model S over one time. The steering needed lots of attention and it went full left then full right. Even as a 13 year old kid, it was too much excitement for me in the passenger seat. The steering set up on the T will work for the N, R, S , & SR and is approximately the same numbers.
Note that Mark gave you the link to Tony Cimorelli’s webpage http://www.cimorelli.com/mtdl/pre-1909/default.htm that has a lot of good information. The one titled 1907 Parts List has a lot of good “How to Instructions” including how to wire the ignition, time the engine, etc. See: http://www.cimorelli.com/mtdl/pre-1909/1907partslist.pdf pages 33-37.
And if you post the engine serial number which should agree with the number on the plate attached to the front seat wooden heel panel, we can check to see if the car is listed in Trent’s Early Ford Database or not. That database has approximately 20-22% of the Early Ford serial numbers listed. For those it has when it was shipped, where it was shipped and who it was shipped to – normally a Ford Agency (today we call them Ford Dealership).

Again, congratulations on your new Ford!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Friday, October 13, 2017 - 08:30 am:

Andre,

Yes, the contact point is the high tension output. I don't believe it matters which of the two pins are battery versus ground.

High gear is kind of a primitive thing. The 3 fingers at the front of the transmission are actuated by the force of the center piece, (the domed "Spool" piece), being forced between them. Hard to describe... Basically, all 3 drums of the transmission are squeezed together to lock up the entire unit and provide a direct drive, or high gear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Friday, October 13, 2017 - 09:50 am:

Thanks all of you for this treasure of information about the Model N Ford.
I will study this and keep you posted on the way it went to get it out of the moth balls.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 07:58 am:

Andre,

Milt Webb's article "How to take a T out of Moth Balls" may help you with items to check / lubricate etc. Obviously no electrical starter -- but many other things will probably still apply. See: the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/8538.html and scroll down to Tom Mullin’s entry the third posting from the top.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Sunday, October 15, 2017 - 12:09 pm:

Thanks Hap,
I saved that posting a while ago and will use it to clear the job. I started this thread because the Model N is different, before I break something I am willing to know what to do for not breaking it.

Thanks
Andre
belgium


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