Aluminum Warford differences

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Aluminum Warford differences
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Monday, October 16, 2017 - 10:18 pm:

So I just got a warford for my speedster and most likely a second for my tourabout (on the back burner while I build the speedster). I got 2 warfords and there are some real differences and was hoping to get a little more information regarding dates as well as differences. The shifters are different (note cotter keys vs square bolts, shifter differences, and the fill on top). One shifter is attached via fine thread and the other coarse. One gear case reads Plant no. 2, the other may be ground off.









Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 01:39 am:

What are the serial numbers for each. I haven't seen one like the first one. That plug on top is interesting.

I have thought about tapping and using a plug in my shifter dedent holes to prevent leaks there.

I have found out there are slight differences between early and late boxes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 05:36 am:

I can't give any info on them other than offer another configuration on a aluminium case. Filler plug on the top,screw plugs and a small screw plug for oil level on the case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 07:29 am:

Frank interestering the differences in the case while having the same shifter. Somr noticible differences are the lack of the angled plug cast in, lack of reinforcing on the back top and reduced reinforcing on the forward top.

It almost seems like Frank has an earlier one that the case was changed while retaining the shifter then the new shifter was added. Or Maybe mine were just made at "plant no 2"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 02:15 pm:

VERY Interesting! This is the first time I have seen a Oil Level indicator. I have posted here before asking about oil level but not much interest or response.

I just drained mine yesterday and refilled it with about 24 oz or 700 ml. I think many times I have had too much oil.

If you guys can get the serial numbers it would be interesting to know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 07:17 pm:

Gene,
the serial #'s stamped in mine are 3893, in the case and the shifter housing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, October 17, 2017 - 08:25 pm:

The one I have in my car is 64363, a spare is 67498 and another I'm working on is 72702.

Looks yours is a very early one and with the plugs could have been a cost savings to use a washer and cotter pin and eliminating the fill and oil level plug.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Knapp on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 07:13 pm:

I will post several entries on my 3 aluminum Warfords (none yet in service). Photos of unit A:

The first is early, showing serial X001472, stamped into the right side of the case, not on any number pad. It also shows a "226" number at the top right of the case, and a matching number right above that on the shifter housing. This trans looks about like Chadwick's first photo. This shifter with the larger round shift housing is quite a bit more sophisticated than the later ones. If you take it apart, the shift lever is actually a "gimbal" setup allowing the lever to move smoothly right/left and forward/back. Warford unit A.Warford unit A., detail


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Knapp on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 07:23 pm:

The second is unit B: Serial #53754

This Warford has the most common shifter I have seen. The tower is a simple cast aluminum piece, with a socket milled into the top. The shift lever has a 1/2 ball attached to ride in the cast socket. The number is stamped near the top flange, in a more orderly way. This unit has a 24 tooth large sliding gear on the main shaft, as does Unit A above.Warford unit B.Warford unit B., detail


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Knapp on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 07:30 pm:

My third Warford unit C: Serial 66193

This Warford has the last style of shifter (I think), which is extended forward several inches compared to the others. It appears that this is to make for easier operation by having the lever locate further in front of the seat riser. I think this shifter is better than the one on unit B, but is not as smooth at the early style on unit A. This trans has a 24 tooth large sliding gear on the mainshaft. I think this is the final configuration produced on aluminum Warfords, but we are still learning!Warford unit C.Warford unit C., detail


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Wednesday, October 18, 2017 - 10:03 pm:

Tim-
Interesterinly it seems that your warford "A" appears to have grind marks where it would say "plant no 2 . . ." the same as mine of similar configuration. Are the threads holding the shifters on the same? One of mine is fine, the other coarse.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Thursday, October 19, 2017 - 02:38 am:

Tim, Does any of yours or have you seen an oil level plug like Franks?

My 3 are like your Unit B but serial #'s 64363, 67948, and 72702 all generally the same except for one part on the latest one.

These look to be made before and after your unit C


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Thursday, October 19, 2017 - 10:05 am:

Tim,
I believe the shifter on your "C" is off an iron case Warford. The iron case units have an extension on the front for a universal joint, this places the transmission further back in the chassis necessitating this shifter to clear the seat riser.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Knapp on Thursday, October 19, 2017 - 08:22 pm:

Chadwick- I looked closely and yes, it does appear that cast-in lettering has been ground off of my unit A. Shifter attachment bolts are 3/8 fine thread. Cast-in lettering on the other side: WARFORD, Patent Applied For, Warford Corporation, 44 Whitehall Street, New York City. This lettering appears on all three units, A, B & C.

Gene- No, none of mine (and none I have seen) have the oil level plug like Frank's. I also note that the cast-in lettering on Frank's seems to be something different than I have ever seen. I can't quite tell.

Frank- What do the letters say on the passenger side shown in the photo? Are there any cast-in letters on the other side, and if so, what do they say?

Layden- I have thought that the shifter on my unit C might be off of an iron Warford. The entire shift assembly IS cast iron or steel, not aluminum, and has a separate number "93250" stamped on a dedicated area at the left rear (top) of the shifter assembly. It does line up and shift well. Has anyone else seen this shifter on an aluminum Warford?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Knapp on Thursday, October 19, 2017 - 08:29 pm:

I am also interested in whether we can figure out the different gear tooth counts. My earliest unit A and intermediate unit B both have 24 tooth large slider gear on the mainshaft. My latest unit C has 25 tooth large slider gear on the mainshaft. Was this change a running production change in aluminum Warfords, (somewhere between #53754 and #66193) so that all after a certain serial number have the 25 tooth gear?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, October 19, 2017 - 09:46 pm:

Tim,
The over lapping letters are PSB, the other side is photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Knapp on Thursday, October 19, 2017 - 10:06 pm:

I think the initials stand for Partridge, Singer and Baldwin company. Indications are they manufactured a rear mount driveline trans called the Concord, which became the Warford. I have no info on how PSB related to Warren Gear Products. Anyone?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 12:48 am:

Has anyone else noticed that there are at least 2 different bolt patterns of the 3 bolts that hold the bearing mounts on the countershaft?

Different bearings were listed in a discussion thread some time ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 01:48 am:

Frank-
I like your warford, I would offer a trade if we were closer as I'm building an early car. A tourabout, think four seat speedster with a top. I'm actually thinking TT frame, warford and a stock drive shaft along with 3:1 gearing and a perfecto.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Knapp on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - 06:43 pm:

So, as far as early Warford production, here is a copy of an advertisement from October 1922, where the company is still listed as Partridge, Singer & Baldwin but the transmission is identified as Warford. The small photo in the ad shows the shift tower to be the style on my photo of Unit A. The company street address at 44 Whitehall is the same address later used for Warford Corporation.

I have seen online information with photos showing Warfords with a cast line "patented November 28, 1911" which seems pretty early. My cases (all believed to be newer than that) all show "patent applied for". Has anyone researched patent info. for these, or possibly the earlier Concord transmission?

I am still very interested in more info on production changes. Anyone who can post a photo of their Warford showing the shift tower style, iron or aluminum case, and the serial number would be most appreciated! /TimWarford Advertisement Oct. 1922


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Thursday, October 26, 2017 - 03:20 pm:

Tim, I don't agree with your theory of mfg dates. I'm certainly no expert but have seen quite a few different ones and take notice since I'm running and promoting the Warfords. I believe the offset shifter had more to with maybe which type of car or if it was a Cast Iron truck model. It sure would be nice to know more. I have guessed that there were some production changes in the later serial #'s for cost savings.

A very valuable addition to this thread would be a detailed list of the available bearings and the specs on the gear teeth.

Here's another question about the bearing on the upper shaft at the Output end. I have seen pictures of what looked like a Timken bearing at this location but the last one I have apart had a regular ball New Departure bearing in that place? Now I wonder if that is really correct but it is that later serial # box.

Thanks for your posting.

PS... Did you see that latest original alum Warford that sold on TBay? Looks like the bidding topped out at $1,975.00!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, October 26, 2017 - 06:43 pm:

I may be wrong? But I don't think any of these types of transmissions were made and marketed to model T Fords before WWI ended. There were a couple two-speed torque tube mount (mostly direct and underdrive) like the Moore that were offered about the time of the last brass Ts ('15 or '16). The separate three speed selective shift designs pretty much had to wait till after war production ended and new markets were being sought. I know some of the Jumbo Giant transmissions have a patent date on them from 1915. But that, like the 1911 date mentioned by Tim K, were likely general gear/bearing/shifting patents used by many companies and for many transmission applications. They were probably not for the specific Jumbo or Warford. That sort of patent display is/was very common in manufacturing and business. It very often was a requirement for paying and using a portion of someone else's patent.
Partially speculation. But I have been through this before with transmissions for other than Fords.
Generally speaking (short of looking at the specific details of a patent by date or patent number), patent dates mostly tell you that something was made "after" the date, and by enough time at least to have added the date into production. It may have been made long after that date. It is common for dates to be ten to even twenty years old on some products.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Knapp on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 - 09:35 pm:

Wayne- you are correct on the generalized patent. I searched and came up with Patent #1,010,273 for a "speed changing mechanism", filed by Fred A Law of Hartford, CT on Feb 5, 1902! Far earlier than seems possible. Patent issued on Nov. 28, 1911, as shown on many Warford cases.

Chadwick- What is the serial number of your 2nd Warford, the one that has NOT had "Plant Number 2" ground off?

Other Serial numbers- I would appreciate anyone else who has a Warford posting the serial number, whether it is aluminum or iron, and whether the shifter is style A, B or C per my photos above.

Other Gear tooth counts- If anyone is game, in addition to serial numbers, it would be helpful to open your Warford and carefully count the number of teeth on the large sliding gear on the mainshaft. So far, these seem to be either 24 tooth or 25 tooth, so you have to count carefully!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 - 11:53 am:

Tim, That'd be very interesting and hope you can put together a list.

Someone send me a PM asking for the bearing numbers but I must have deleted it and can't remember who now.

The title to this thread now is a bit off. Maybe time for another so more guys might open it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 - 11:30 pm:

I like that this is still relative to the alumin warford. I will see what I can do about locating numbers, last month I got nothing done on any T's. Next month will be similar,, lets just say my life is seriously on about the second verse of a country song. Just trying to stay positive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 03:18 pm:

OK Tim, Here you go mine

All mine are your common "B" style.

Serial #72702

Main shaft - first gear Input (front)
1st - 18T, 2nd - 24T, 3rd - 15T

Counter shaft (Lower)
1st - 22T, 2nd - 16T, 3rd - 25T

Serial #'s 67,948 and 64,363 are all the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Knapp on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 04:05 pm:

Thanks Gene- So far, your 72702 is the highest serial number aluminum case (only about a dozen reports so far). Only a couple of iron case yet, but they start with a higher serial than 72702, and go up over 100,000.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 04:14 pm:

I see two CI Warfords on Tbay now, one for over 1,000!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Wednesday, November 08, 2017 - 08:39 pm:

The one warford is 69760 (newer style) the other is 12326. The 12326 is stamped 2-23-26 and X-001313


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Thursday, November 09, 2017 - 12:42 pm:

Chadwick, I hope your getting back to normal pretty soon and good see your post here. Keep positive and progress slowly and you'll get there.

That 12326 seems pretty low for a 2/26. Is it missing a digit?


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