Is this the correct Cylinder Head for a 1911?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Is this the correct Cylinder Head for a 1911?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon - Richmond, VA on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 06:01 am:

I have the opportunity to purchase the head pictured which appears to be in great shape & has been magnifluxed with no repairs. To you experts out there, do the casting numbers have any significance & is the head period correct for 1911? Thx for any input!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 06:23 am:

With the boss on the back it could be the later part of the 1911 model year but if that's a month/day casting date then it's not, maybe 1910, can't be 1912 with that date, then it would have Made in USA on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 06:29 am:

on all the heads I have seen the FORD is to large, I would say it is a canadian head before they started stamping made in canada. The large chablets are not present also,left of your arrow, all you see is a 1/4 bump instead of a 3/4 in square with the 1/4 in the center. Just my imput?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 06:41 am:

Joe beat me to it, on a second look I'm thinking the same thing, Canadian head.
Bob, early heads didn't have a support casting pole inside the head a few inches in the water outlet, worth a look.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 10:12 am:

It does look like the first number is smudged, but actually 2 5 21, a method used on Canadian engines to provide the manufacture date.

A side view would be better provide information on whether it was a high head or low head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 12:16 pm:

"It does look like the first number is smudged" -

That appears to be the "retaining" screw for the date plate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 01:00 pm:

Steve, that could be a screw.

Here is another example of a 2 16 15 Engine Date.

Date


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 01:11 pm:

Note that this engine has a LOW HEAD.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon - Richmond, VA on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 04:50 pm:

Thank for all the input, Iíll check inside the water outlet for a casting pole when I see the head again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 09:08 pm:

A 1911 low head would have the casting date (month and day only - never a year) on a boss that straddles the center head bolt - not at the rear of the head. It could just be the camera angle but it appears the "Made in USA" may have been ground off. That is something you need to look for since a lot of "made up" early heads are later heads made to look early. I have several 1911 cars and 2 of them are Stynoski winners and they don't have a head like that on them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William bender on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 09:13 pm:

Hello Bob I have a head just like yours and mine does have a post in the water jacket. Thanks again Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, October 20, 2017 - 09:32 pm:

A 1911 low head would have the casting date (month and day only - never a year) on a boss that straddles the center head bolt - not at the rear of the head. It could just be the camera angle but it appears the "Made in USA" may have been ground off. That is something you need to look for since a lot of "made up" early heads are later heads made to look early. I have several 1911 cars and 2 of them are Stynoski winners and they don't have a head like that on them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, October 21, 2017 - 03:34 pm:

John, please post a correct photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Saturday, October 21, 2017 - 05:22 pm:

From 1910 #23805


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Saturday, October 21, 2017 - 05:24 pm:

From 1910 #334xx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon - Richmond, VA on Sunday, October 22, 2017 - 02:08 pm:

Thanks for all the post, very interesting all the differences.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevada Bob Middleton on Sunday, October 22, 2017 - 04:38 pm:

Mine has month day but has the made in USA that be post 12?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, October 23, 2017 - 09:42 am:

Thanks Kim:

My cars are not where I can get a good picture of the top of the motor to show the "date boss" that straddles that middle head bolt that I was talking about. The "Made in USA" is often ground off in a vain attempt to make up an "early head" but there are other differences that make the head then worthless to a collector so don't think about grinding the "made in USA" off of a typical 1913 later head to use it on your early car or you will be sorry you did that. I have never seen a head with a "year" included in the date stamp. Just month and day. The reason is that one of the numbers is always 1 through 12 and the other number is always 1 through 31. I have checked EVERY early head I have ever looked at to see if other numbers were ever used and they were not. I still do it but after so many years I figure I ain't likely to find something different. I will warn you that there are some really really good "pirate" parts fabricators out there who emulate early parts very well. The best one I know doesn't sell any of those parts without the owner knowing what he is buying so there is honor among them ha ha. Ernie Brown (R.I.P.) comes to mind with his brass carburetors which bring higher prices than originals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, October 23, 2017 - 09:56 am:

I realized after posting that I really didn't make it totally clear that Ernie Brown was NOT a pirate parts maker. He was a master craftsman who openly made reproduction carburetors but they were so good that the only way you could really tell them from original was that Ernie's were "perfect" in every detail. No crooked name plate or anything else that you probably would find on an original. He was one of the nicest guys I ever met in the hobby and he restored both of my 1911 brass carburetors on my Early 1911 Touring car (Holly 4150) and my 1911 Open Runabout (Kingston 5 ball). Like a few other guys in this hobby he was a former high school shop teacher.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Monday, October 23, 2017 - 08:30 pm:

Here is my late 1911 head, dated 9/2



: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Monday, October 23, 2017 - 09:21 pm:

John, I have found one head at hershey that was stamped the day month and year, Constantine from Ausie now has it for his 13 touring that he did the long journey with years ago. I hope he post a picture of it?? It is the only one I ever saw!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel Indiana Truck Logansport In on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 - 07:28 pm:

My 13 has the date with the year but the 12 has just day and month and has a small made in USA between the bolt holes just under Ford like in the picture Keith posted. Later heads have made in USA much bigger and spread out more than mine is. I will post a picture when I get the head back since it is in the shop with my engine block getting work done on it right now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, October 27, 2017 - 03:48 am:

Joe:

Was the head maybe a Canadian head since 1913 was when the Canadians started making a lot of things that they previously bought directly from Ford in the USA. I have seen some claims of heads with the year but upon closer examination the date boss was just really rough and the wood screw slot that is often visible on the ends was in fact being interpreted as a number. I play mostly with 11 and 12 cars but my son's 16 roadster had month day and year casting dates on the block and exact same month and day casting date on the head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 05:05 pm:

Not to hijack the thread, but since it's being discussed, this is the head on my 14. It had a high head when I bought it so I bought this low head. The block has a 10-29-13 cast date but the serial number shows a Jan 1914 build date. I'm thinking the date is for November 14? The 1 that appears above the 11-14 isn't part of the removable date code so I don't believe it's Jan 11, 1914. If it is I got real lucky when I bought the head. There are 3 round bosses you can see in the pictures. It seems like sometime around 1913-14 there were some square bosses visible that went away. What would the approximate date range of this head be?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 07:12 pm:

John, It said Made In the USA on it, I was thinking he would chime in on it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 07:33 pm:

The head Joe found me had "12-31-12" (last day of 1912). This date was turned 90degrees to the left so it would fit. With square casting marks this head is most definitely a 1912-3 head. Perhaps workers included the year on this head to celebrate New Year's Eve? See:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/578338.html?1444738578


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 11:51 pm:

Corey
I can tell you that head was cast on Nov 14, but I can't tell you what year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 12:23 am:

On many heads there are number(s) not usually in line with the month and day dates. Usually above or to either side of the month/day block that is associated with a wood screw head and the boss being raised up. It is my belief that these single digit or 2 digit numbers specify which MOLD the part was cast from since it would not change. If there was a flaw discovered after casting the factory people would most certainly want a way to know which mold had made the part as well as the date it was cast.

Corey:

Your November 14th (1913?) head casting date would be a very likely head to have been found on a car with a car build date of Jan 1914. Prior to at least 1916 it was common practice to AGE a block and/or head casting for 30 days before machining it. On my sons 1916 roadster the block casting date Month/day/year was exactly the same as the head Month/day casting date and only one day prior to the serial number build date. No more 30 day aging at least by that time which was at end of 1915. Production was ramping up and no place to put stuff for 30 day aging being the likely motivation. This is only my opinion here but it is based upon personal manufacturing experience and simple logic. Your mileage may vary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel Indiana Truck Logansport In on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 - 06:05 pm:



I still don't have my 1912 head back but here is a shot of the date on my 1913 head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 11:33 am:

Bob:

Could you post a picture of the entire head. That is a very unusual head and would very much like to have a picture of it since it is the first one I have seen with what seems to be a mo/day/year date code on it. The boss is raised and is not a Mold number as far as I can tell. I wondered if there were other differences and would love to have a picture of the whole thing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel Indiana Truck Logansport In on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 06:06 pm:



Here you go John, I can take other pictures if you want but this was in my files already.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 07:49 pm:

No that is fine. It sure has all the details you would expect by the date code so I am wondering where it was made. I know that branch building of T's resulted usually in rather early parts still being used way beyond what was normal. It is the first head I ever saw that had the mo/day/yr on it but it also has the date boss in a different place than all others I have looked at. All of the ones I previously have viewed had the date boss straddling the center head bolt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine on Friday, November 03, 2017 - 09:20 pm:

John, did you see the link above? There's another there that was made 20 days earlier.


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