The guys who design stuff should have to work on it alone.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: The guys who design stuff should have to work on it alone.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 02:49 pm:


Try getting a nut on that without a helper. :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 03:14 pm:

Steve, many decades ago, I commented that when automotive engineers die and go to hell, they have to spend eternity working on vehicles that they designed. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Mullins Spokane Wa. on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 03:17 pm:

I do it all the time I use small bent nose vise grips to hold the nut as I turn the bolt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 03:20 pm:

I use tape over the end of an 9/16" open wrench to hold the nut in place while I start it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 03:26 pm:

I usually put the nut in a box end wrench, nut carefully held in wrench using a little electrical tape, chewing gum, clay, or anything else I can think of that will keep it in place to get it started, yet allow release once firmly started onto the bolt. Still a pain in the #%% if you are trying to do this with the body and fenders in place. Somehow, trying to hold that silly thing straight while reaching around everything and you can't reach far enough and still see what you are trying to line up straight and the firewall is cutting into your arm - - -.
Yeah.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 03:38 pm:

Not to mention putting the cotter pin in--well, putting it in is easy, bending the end to keep it in. . . .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 03:47 pm:

Gorilla tape on a tongue depressor works fine to insert the upright bolts from below and hold them while you get the nuts on, but starting the horizontal ones with the body on the car almost requires two people. Taping the nut in a wrench and taping the wrench in place will work eventually, but getting there is not a stroll in the park.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 03:54 pm:

I've used a bit of paper towel in a box end wrench for the passenger side or drivers side on a non-starter car but can't get the wrench back out if I try that on a starter equipped car. My choice there is a n open end and tape and agree that it is awkward at best.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john pawlowski - NE Pennsylvania on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 03:55 pm:

But on the Model T assembly line they were pumping out T's like crazy, at least in the films I've seen. And what about Henry Fords time studies?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 04:13 pm:

Ford's time studies are always pipe dreams for hobbyists. These bolts went in before the body went on in the factory, easy peasey. The mechanic doing repair work in the field encountered the same joys (and like shared opinions of designers) with those of us who work on these today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 04:46 pm:

Steve, get the longest set of hemostats you can find, they will lock on to the nut and give you the reach you need to turn the bolt. I have used them for years for such. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 05:03 pm:

Mark G's method is the one I use. I use whatever tape I have available to hold the nut in place in a open end wrench.

I wonder how many cotter pins were left out in the T garages in the good old days!

Unfortunately I'm not a purist in this regard. I put on a lock washer instead. I put a little gob of grease on the end of my finger and finagle the lock washer on then put the nut on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 05:14 pm:


With no hemostats on hand, a combination of Gorilla tape and awkward contortions eventually got the nut on. There's no way I'll try to bend that cotter. It will have to depend on gravity to keep it in there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevada Bob Middleton on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 05:16 pm:

Be vreative steve i work alone 99% of the time
I even used little rtv gasket stuff in open end wrench
David D get the cotter key in the hole turn the bolt and use flat tip screwdriver bend it


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 05:19 pm:

I have welded a nut on that side on my Ts and never had one get loose without a pin in it. Sure makes it easy!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco - Winchester Va. on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 05:46 pm:

As an Engrinear (witch I didn't know how to spell when I congratulated), this has always been one of my favorite compositions:

THE ENGINEER

The engineer bent across his board,
Wonderful things in his head were stored,
And he said as he rubbed his throbbing bean,
"How can I make this thing hard to machine?
If this part here were only straight,
I'm sure the thing would work first rate.
But would be so easy to turn and bore,
It never would make the machinist sore.
I better put in a right angle there,
Then watch them babies tear their hair.
And I'll put the holes that hold the cap,
Way down here where they're hard to tap.
Now this piece won't work, I'll bet a buck,
For it can't be held in a shoe or chuck,
It can't be drilled or it can't be ground,
In fact, the design is exceedingly sound. He look again and cried, "At last!
Success is mine, it can't even be cast."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 05:48 pm:

Steve -
Just turn the bolt from the outer side of the frame until the cotter pin is horizontal. It appears that you used a stout enough cotter pin to survive the pressure that will be exerted against it during the turn. Once the cotter(via the nut and bolt) is in the horizontal position, bend the longer cotter pin arm by prying against it with a long shank screwdriver. Use the top rail of the frame as the fulcrum. Alternately, maybe you could grab the pin's arm with a pair of side cutters (dykes).
Marshall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 06:41 pm:

I do like Mark and Wayne using a 9/16" open end wrench and masking tape to hold the nut and then release it easily when it's on the bolt. I cheat a little by not using a cotter pin, using a slip or circle pin instead. When the next time to remove the engine comes, I just pull the pin out with a needle nose pliers. It all works quite nicely.

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kirk Peterson on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 06:50 pm:

My guess the reason it is so difficult,
There was not a starter located near there for the first ten years of production.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 07:18 pm:

Steve: That side crankcase arm bolt & nut isn't suppose to be super tight. It is just to keep the crankcase arm from bending, to tight is not good. You should be able to turn the bolt enough to bend the carter pin a little with needle nose pliers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gary hammond-Forest, Va on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 07:25 pm:

The manufacturers design cars for easy assembly on the line. Easy servicing doesn't enter into the equation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 08:12 pm:

Steve, that nut should never be over tight. With the pin in place just wrench the bolt head around so tbe pin is horizontal, and then bend it over.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Clary on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 08:34 pm:

I just hold it with a magnet to start the nut and open end wrench after that. Since this bolt is not cinched tight you can easily turn it to bend the key. After 35 years as a mechanic there really is nothing difficult to do on a T.

Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 08:49 pm:

All this talk about tape, chewing gum, even clay. Am I the only one that uses a dab of grease?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 09:05 pm:

I just did it this week. I first used a box wrench to hold the nut with duct tape to hold the nut into the wrench. I then reached up with one hand and turned the bolt from under the car. I got it tight but could not remove the box wrench. So I took it out and then used an open end wrench with tape to hold the nut in place. The hardest part was lining up the slot in the nut with the hole for the cotter pin. Fortunately my friend came by and I asked him to look down from the top to see when it was lined up and we got it in a few minutes and dropped in the cotter pin. You don't need to bend the end all the way, just bend it enough so that it won't fall out if the nut happens to turn around.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 09:07 pm:

Thin cheap box wrench seems to be able to slip out from there...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 09:58 pm:

It's a pain. I hate the screws in the Bendix cover too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 10:17 pm:

I vote for a hemostat too.
Without one I'd NEVER have got the top wood attached to the body of my 27 Tudor as I didn't remove any of the interior but pulled a million tacks and folded down a small upper portion of the interior material.
Even with the thin hemostat it was touchy getting the original carriage head screws back in place and getting the nuts started but I did........ :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 10:30 pm:

Open-end wrench and masking tape....easy to do.






Add a strip of tape over the wench end and castle nut top.



The bolt placed first with hole up, then turn the bolt into the captive nut. The wrench holds it as you snug the bolt, remove open end wrench and add the cotter!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daren Carlson on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 11:14 pm:

Since my car I a driver I tack welded a nut in place with the slots vertical.. I also just inserted the cotter pin from the top and let gravity hold it there. Saved a lot of time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 11:52 pm:

I like the tack weld idea, might just do that before I reassemble my engine. I just ordinarily use self locking nuts there anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 12:01 am:

Dan, that's what I did with Gorilla tape. I should have thought of turning the pin horizontal once it's in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 12:11 am:

After the nut is tightened and the cotter pin attached it is a good idea to stuff the opening between the crankcase arm and the starter with a folded piece of paper towel or what ever is handy, so non-magnetic items such as small brass screws don't fall in. It is just about impossible to get them out.

Art Wilson
San Diego Ca.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 12:28 am:

Any of you guys ever heard of Vise Grips? I use the small pointed end ones. The COTTER PIN is kinda done the same way. I stick the cotter pin in the hole, and give the bolt a slight turn to keep it from falling down, and then finish up with my turn until the split end is on top. The rest should be a no brainer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 12:45 am:

Larry, the whole point of having a T forum is to exchange problems and ideas on how to fix them with common sense solutions. Not everyone here has all the T experience you do, but at one point, you were a brainless newbie too, right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 01:11 am:

Am I a dope?
A 6LN.
When my long fingers can't do it, I reach for these sweet old "fingers". :-)

6LN

When on the assembly line, was it easily done to grab the nut betwixt the fore and middle fingers to fish the nut down in there?
I have some muscle issues but the men on the line had to have exceptional skin, finger and hand strength. Yes?
Interesting. :-)
Oops! I'm not the only one up at this time... ;-)

(Message edited by Duey_C on October 29, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john pawlowski - NE Pennsylvania on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 01:54 am:

I used the long nose vise grips too. I'll have to double check and see if I cheated on the cotter pins though. ;>)
Another night owl


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer --- Klaaswaal NL on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 04:34 am:

Steve: for the other two bolts I use this one's
2577M
2578M
Toon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 05:25 am:

And if you have a '26/'27 with the diagonal straps from the block down to the top bolts of the rear engine mount, then I don't think the horizontal bolts are necessary. The diagonal straps stabilize the engine sideways, so the wood blocks weren't necessary anymore. They were excluded on the TT's late in production.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Frost on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 09:23 am:

Another dumb question, does the vertical bolt mounting provide a grounding point for the frame to engine on a 26/27? Should the frame and ears be sanded to bare metal if so?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 09:45 am:

Steve,

You recharged your magneto magnets ... now use the magnetizer on your wrenches and screw drivers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 10:09 am:

The vertical bolts are irrelevant. The real grounding is through the pan arms resting on the frame.


Even if the arms are painted, all that weight will dig through and make metal-to-metal contact.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jeff cordes on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 09:08 pm:

I don't worry about the side bolts but then again I drive late model TT trucks and they didn't use them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 09:32 pm:

Jeff: I saw some NORS TT crankcase arm blocks at Hershey. I looked in my parts book to see if Ford made such a thing, and apparently they used the passenger car blocks. Those needle nose Vise Grips are what I was referring to. I suppose experience counts on stuff like this, but I call it common sense!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 01:09 am:

UH - hey guys. Are you aware that modern cotter pins generally only now come in the "self spreading" variety. These are the ones where the longest leg of the cotter pin is bent at an angle that places it beyond the end of the shorter leg and at an angle that causes it to be touching the very end of the STRAIGHT shorter leg. The head of these same cotter pins are made so you place the cotter pin in the hole and then smack the HEAD straight down which drives the cotter into the hole and pushes the straight part of the cotter pin into the angled end part. This spreads the ends apart permanently so the pin can't fall out. I think almost all cotter pins are made that way nowadays. They can be used in a blind hole where the other end of the cotter can never be reached.


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