Resurrection of a 1909 Model T Ford - part II

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Resurrection of a 1909 Model T Ford - part II
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 01:54 pm:

It’s been a while since I last wrote about the 09 but some progress has been made. I drove to Hershey and while I found the correct coil box and coils I was unable to locate either the correct brake rods or the correct brake cam.
The suppliers have the cam in their catalogs but are out of stock. I am looking for either the cam or the complete emergency brake shaft with a solid cam.
Most of the work has been on the engine block. I picked it up from LocknStitch in Turlock and the repair looks good.





As you can see the crack was extensive. They believe the Block has been dropped on the corner which caused the crack. The crack probably showed up when Dale was processing the block for Babitting. I have now checked the cam cover, pan, hogs head and magneto coil all fit the block so it can be returned to Dale to complete the three main bearings.
I don’t know if it is peculiar to my Block but the fit of parts is not as accurate as the later blocks I have worked on. Typically parts such as the mag ring just fit. This was not the case with my kit of parts and I have had to rework the mag ring to fit. I will get a picture later.
So we move on. Next is the steering column, I have over 25 hours already in the column, it is quite complex to assemble.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 02:29 pm:

Looks like a nice job. Was it pricey?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 03:33 pm:

Just over $1000.
Of course I could have purchased the LocknStitch kit and done it myself for one third to half that price.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 04:55 pm:

Here are the pictures showing the minor changes to make the magneto coil ring match the Block.





Originally the inner circle of metal was smooth and had to be ground to miss the Block. On the other side a little casting mark needed the ring to be cut to clear.
Just interesting as in the past I have always been impressed how interchangeable the parts are from different years. Certainly not true on this 09


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 - 04:22 pm:

I am still painting the steering column, most of the bits are ready.
Today I decided to try an installation of the wheels. Readers may remember that the wheels are all new, with custom made hubs. This allows the rear wheels to externally look like an 09 but actually use the tapered axles. The rear wheels fitted without any problems but installing the split pin will be interesting. The front wheel hubs also appear to be new and the bearing races seem a little loose.

The major downer is that the hub cap threads do not match the Ford hub caps. :-(

I guess I should see if the hub threads can be fixed, they have too great a diameter, but reworking the caps would be easier.

Any comments?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 - 04:26 pm:

After the repair, is the face of the block flat where the timing cover will fit? Or, will the block face gap away from the cover due to the original injury that cracked the block?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 - 05:32 pm:

I would think a competent machinist could rethread the hubs to the proper pitch and diameter on a lathe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 - 07:16 pm:

That will probably mean disassembling the wheels :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 12:28 am:

Tony; If the thread count is correct and the sizing isn't too far off try and find someone with an original thread clean-up tool. It may be able to safely remove enough material without disassembling the wheels. I'm not sure, but it's worth a try.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 02:24 am:

Tony, I have an early brake lever for sale, I'll check for any extra 09-10 brake rods.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Saturday, November 04, 2017 - 10:21 pm:

I have made some progress on two items.
Eventually I was satisfied with the paint on the steering column so I completed the assembly. The very early columns were quite similar to the later designs except it is six inches shorter. So I cut six inches off the column and both control rods and then reworked to add key ways, tapers and holes for the various levers and retaining springs. I then tried the complete assembly on the chassis with the firewall, it looks good.



Fitting the rods is quite a procedure. First they were brass plated, then both halves of the top tinned, the the rods installed and the two halves riveted and the soldered together.

T

The second 09 related task for the day was to investigate the none fitting hub caps. I found a regular hub cap fitted the front hubs once the paint had been removed. I then confirmed the 09 caps have a smaller inner diameter than the regular cap. New caps are $16 from the suppliers but I decided to try and rework them to fit. If my work fails, then I’ll buy new.
My 09 hub caps are quite substantial and are quite thick. So I placed one in the lathe and cut if until the inner diameter was the same as a later cap. Then I recut the threads in the 09 hub until it fitted the paint removed front hub. I’m no expert on the lathe, Lee Pierce was my mentor for many years, so now I have to feel my way very slowly. Anyhow one down, with three to go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Saturday, November 04, 2017 - 10:40 pm:

While waiting for steering column paint to dry and thinking about the hub caps, I did a few other tasks.
I found the body number under the front seat (B7264), just the same as the 14 Touring.



The other task was to clean the Kingston 5 ball carb. The ball bearings were stuck and I purchased some fresh carb cleaner to solve that issue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 12:55 am:

Progress! A fantastic car, and it is going to be better than it has been in a hundred years!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 10:06 am:

Fun to see, thanks Tony for keeping us up to date. Question, you noted the body number (B7264) and said "same as the 1914" do you mean the number was in the same place on both, or that the number B7264 was the same ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 10:10 am:

Same location. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 10:44 am:

You have yourself quite a job, Tony. But if anyone can do it, you can!
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 07:54 pm:

Today I pulled the transmission apart. It is similar to the later design but with subtle differences.
First there are 13 big and 13 small clutch disks and one very thick small. The triple gear bushings do not have the large boss on the flywheel end.



The Brake drum is slightly different and doesn’t have the three large washers.



The inner clutch disk has more holes in the side but they are smaller diameter. I had to grind my puller a little more.



I also disassembled the clutch spring pack and there are several differences. Biggest is a key between the output shaft and the sliding boss that is between the spring and the three fingers. In addition there are a couple of large washers either end of the spring and a fancy cast ring to hold the spring pin.





Finally look at the fancy magnets. Kim tells me they’ve don't hold the magnetism too well. :-(



Hope this was interesting, we’re making real progress on the chassis and engine, it should be running in the foreseeable future.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 08:12 pm:

That's the first I've seen the early magnets. Thanks for sharing this project. It's fascinating!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 08:38 pm:

Tony, I'm sure it's very interesting to anyone who is curious about the evolution of the Model T. Thank you for letting us peek at the "innards" !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Friday, November 10, 2017 - 01:36 am:

Today I took the flywheel to a local enthusiast who has re-charged magnets with great success. Our experiences are documented under the thread “Recharging T magnets“


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, November 10, 2017 - 02:03 am:

I am still trying to learn more about the differences in the early transmissions. Many things, I have heard of before, but usually poorly described and few pictures. So I really can't follow all the changes. I have some early transmission parts, but not enough of them for me to put together a real early transmission. However, I still hope to one day.
Thank you! You filled in several of my questions.

Now I need to check out your "recharge" thread. Haven't seen it yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Friday, November 10, 2017 - 05:32 pm:

Very interesting!
Fancy magnets is correct, they're even stamped "N" on the north pole. I think that's a beautiful photo. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Friday, November 10, 2017 - 07:15 pm:

Only part of the trans I don't recognize is the washer that apparently goes over/under the retaining ring with the pin. Do you have the early fourth main with the thick babbitt flange on the engine side? Interesting to see the evolution and try to figure out why changes were made. Its even more instructive when you tear into an NRS.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Saturday, November 11, 2017 - 11:17 pm:

I picked up the 09 Block from Antique Engine and today I saw the guys on a tour around Fallbrook.

The complaints about the poor accuracy of the parts continues:
1. When they installed the tooling to machine the Babbitt, they had to add 0.016” shims between the Block and the base of the Block to get the camshaft bar to install correctly.
2. The second complaint was that the three pair of main bearing bolt holes are not in line. Apparently the center pair are about 0.015” out of line.

To be honest the first item may not be a Ford tolerance problem, the base could have been machined over the past 108 years. I instructed Locknstitch not to machine the base, they did ask..... However the out of line was definitely done by the Ford employees.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, November 12, 2017 - 01:01 am:

Tony,
The problems will flow on, lifting the line borer up that 16thou to get cam to crank centre line/cam gear mesh, will now need the pan lifted the same amount to keep a correct centre line on the ballcap, I've got away with using 2 gaskets before to allow for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, November 13, 2017 - 04:46 pm:

The 09 kit of parts included four newly standard sized babbitted connecting rods. Yesterday I tried to fit them on the new Scat crank. Naturally they don’t fit, they appear to be the correct diameter but too wide. The Scat crank appears to be 1.500” between crank throws while the rod Babbitt is over 0.015” wider. I scrapped the width down to 1.488” and the rounded the edges to the correct 1/16” radius. I used lots of Prussian Blue and below is a picture of one rod.



In chatting with our local babbitting guru at Antique Engine, he advises side clearance of 0.015” so there is a little more work to do before I can take the next step.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Monday, November 13, 2017 - 10:48 pm:

Tony, Model T rods should be cut to 1.500 wide, but if Scat has chosen to make their cranks that wide. Model T Rods should be cut .005 to .007 thousandths side clearance.

Anything over .010 to .012 will start breaking flanges off.

Get them straight, Twist, Bend, and Off Set.

Bearing Blue will work OK for Hogging out a lot of Babbitt, but when you get down to finishing, don't use anything. Just get the bearing tighter, turn it over a few times, and scrape the dark spots off. Just try it.

You just can't get Blue thin enough for finish work.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 10:48 am:

Thanks Herm for the idea of looking for dark spots. They are tough to see (for me) but they are there. :-)
I tried to connect the transmission to the flywheel, no surprise, it doesn’t fit. The pins are too large in diameter. Measuring accurately and repeatably is not my strong point but they seem to be about 0.0015” too large in diameter. Of course to get the pins out of the flywheel, I had to disassemble the transmission :-(
I gave up in disgust and will take a break.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 02:46 pm:

Tony.
The pins would be fine, it's the triple gear bushings that need to be reamed to the right clearances to fit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 03:03 pm:

Frank,

He's talking about the two locating pins between the crankshaft and the flywheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 03:25 pm:

Jerry is correct, sorry if I caused confusion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 05:27 pm:

I have been asked several times about the inner ring that hold the clutch spring in compression. In the later T’s the metal top hat pressing has a built in retainer for the spring. Not so on the early clutches, there is a retaining ring which transfers the thrust from the pin to the simpler top hat pressing. The ring is quite a fancy casting and has at least three machining steps.



You can see how it is machined on both sides and then a hole drilled thru the center.

(Message edited by Tony_bowker on November 15, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Friday, November 17, 2017 - 07:07 pm:

I decided to do a temporary assembly of the remaining engine parts to see if there were any surprises in store for me. There was........
The fourth main bearing is hitting the ring pin holder from the previous entry in the thread.



I took off the hogs head :-(





You can see on the existing fourth main that it has been touching something. I hope that when I remove a little from the newly babbitted fourth main, it will still clear the back of the top hat spring retainer. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Friday, November 17, 2017 - 08:44 pm:

4th mains for early cars were different. Thicker babbitt with a flange that rode against the spring ring. Looks to me like you've got the ring backwards.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, November 20, 2017 - 11:35 am:

I removed the pan, then pulled the top hat and clutch spring. The pin ring was wrong way round, I could see where the fourth main had been rubbing. I ground about 0.100” from the back side of the ring. Then I made a washer to fit inside the top hat to move the top hat forward by the thickness of the washer. I re-assembled and replace the pan and now there is a very small gap between the front of the fourth main and the pin ring. If necessary I can remove 0.050” from the front of the fourth main.
Making progress, slow but reasonably sure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Monday, November 20, 2017 - 12:49 pm:

Thank you for taking the time post pictures along with write ups. I have been following both threads. I enjoy the learning experience while watching your progress (and occasional setbacks).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 12:11 pm:

The engine assembly is coming together nicely , just waiting for the piston to arrive from Egge. I have the timer completed but waiting on the 7/32x32 die to modify the commutator rod.







Just like on the later timer, one of the terminals is very close to the fan belt :-)

Next decision is how to start the motor, should I put on some junk wheels and tow it or use the hand crank !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 01:38 pm:

Why the bright green paint?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 02:54 pm:

I was looking for inexpensive spray can of paint and I thought (wrong)) that it would look like the dark green I have on the chassis. I’ll probably repaint. Bah


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Bishop, San Diego on Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 03:16 pm:

Tony,
Your whole problem is your garage is too neat and clean :-).
Have a Happy Thanksgiving, and Scott and Carolyn and the boys too!

Bob and Marilyn


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Martin on Friday, November 24, 2017 - 12:01 am:

Tony, That timer looks like the 2nd version where flat head screws go all the way thru the timer body, fiber, and cover. The two long screws that are used to thread the thumb nuts onto (to hold the cover in place) should be in-line with the arm, not as they are currently assembled. The long screws and the short screws should be interchanged. This should provide more clearance to the fan belt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer --- Klaaswaal NL on Friday, November 24, 2017 - 03:25 am:

Tony ; Now it is time to check your magneto output.
0317S
Toon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Barrett - Anderson, IN on Friday, November 24, 2017 - 05:18 am:

Here is what the timer should look like in the fully retarded position.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, November 24, 2017 - 10:12 am:

Was that green paint "heat resistant engine paint?"
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Hgenter on Saturday, November 25, 2017 - 12:53 pm:

This photo shows the correct location of the long through bolts on the timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Saturday, November 25, 2017 - 07:53 pm:

Thanks for the pictures showing the correct position of the retaining screws. I’ve now fixed it.



I tried the manifolds today, both seem OK but should something screw into the air intake of the carb?



When assembling the rods and pistons a friend lent me some of his tools. He recommends Time Saver and it did a great job to finish off the rod bearing after I had used the Prussian Blue. One fixture verifies the lack of twist and correct alignment of the rod. The second measures the weight of the rod at the crank end. I was surprised how repeatable it is, within a gram or 0.05 oz if my eyes read the scale correctly.





One rod was quite light, so I used a longer bolt and all the rods are now within 0.1 oz. I am still waiting for pistons so they will be balanced as soon as they arrive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Barrett - Anderson, IN on Sunday, November 26, 2017 - 05:58 am:

I don’t believe the 5 Ball Carburetors came with an intake attachment, but here is what Kim Dobbins sold me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Friday, December 08, 2017 - 11:41 pm:

Well my fourth piston arrived, adjusted it so it was within a gram or so of the other three and completed the short Block. Then I completed the transmission and installed in the pan. Then I tried the hogs head again and there was still a little interference when I installed the new fourth main bearing. There was a small burr in the hogs head catching the fourth main. Typical of the past month or so. Now the motor is in the chassis and my restored firewall with polished brass is now on the chassis.





Today I completed the steering and adjusted the toe in. Finally I started to work on the control rod for the commutator. What a pain, spent two hours already and still not quite correct. It runs on the front of the commutator and I’m getting interference from the fan belt and the arm touching the fancy finger nut for #3 coil.



I guess I’m making progress, I’ve stopped keeping a record of my time on this project, just too depressing. No wonder the previous owner had problems getting reasonable professional quote. At my normal rate for friends, I couldn’t afford it, never mind the two to three times higher rate charged by a professional shop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, December 09, 2017 - 12:33 am:

Thanks for the update! I love to see someone making good progress on a worthy project.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Messersmith on Saturday, December 09, 2017 - 02:09 pm:

I like it! Great pics! Thanks for sharing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Messersmith on Saturday, December 09, 2017 - 02:11 pm:

I like it! Great pics! Thanks for sharing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Barrett - Anderson, IN on Saturday, December 09, 2017 - 03:53 pm:

Keep in mind the timing rod needs to go around the lower water hose and miss the timing screw when fully retarded.

Instead of bending your own rods, you may want to try these:

http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/timer-adjusting-rod-4589


http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/commutator-rod-swivel-end-993


http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/carburetor-control-rod


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Saturday, December 09, 2017 - 05:30 pm:

The darker green engine paint looks much better than the earlier John Deere green :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Sunday, December 10, 2017 - 04:39 pm:

Thanks Rod, I had not found the commutator control rod for the 09/10.
The name for the later commutator control rod while the 1909-10 name is timer adjusting rod.
I wonder why the name changed.
This morning I went to the barn with the picture and now it is done with full retard just after TDC. While I was on a roll I installed the exhaust and inlet manifold, then the carb control rod. Rest of the day is family time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, December 11, 2017 - 09:22 pm:

Now I know where the term “hogshead” comes from. The regular transmission cover isn’t too difficult especially out of the car but Oh My Goodness the early square one is a real bitch.
I did low band with no problem, the Brake is tough because there is not too much room to get fingers in the turn the nut. So I moved the pedal and the nut went on.
The reverse is much worse. This time there is NO room to move fingers and holding the nut with pliers and moving the pedal to get the thread started was REAL FUN. In both the Brake and reverse there is no room to get a wrench in to tighten the nuts. I jammed a screwdriver onto the band and slowly tightened the nut at 1/6 turn at a time.
Has anyone solved the problem?
I won’t be putting much mileage on gas 09 :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Pharis on Monday, December 11, 2017 - 10:25 pm:

I don't know Ed... Dusenbergs have "money green" engines too ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 04:24 pm:

I don’t know what Kevin means, probably a message for a different thread.


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration