It’s been a while since I last wrote about the 09 but some progress has been made. I drove to Hershey and while I found the correct coil box and coils I was unable to locate either the correct brake rods or the correct brake cam.
The suppliers have the cam in their catalogs but are out of stock. I am looking for either the cam or the complete emergency brake shaft with a solid cam.
Most of the work has been on the engine block. I picked it up from LocknStitch in Turlock and the repair looks good.
As you can see the crack was extensive. They believe the Block has been dropped on the corner which caused the crack. The crack probably showed up when Dale was processing the block for Babitting. I have now checked the cam cover, pan, hogs head and magneto coil all fit the block so it can be returned to Dale to complete the three main bearings.
I don’t know if it is peculiar to my Block but the fit of parts is not as accurate as the later blocks I have worked on. Typically parts such as the mag ring just fit. This was not the case with my kit of parts and I have had to rework the mag ring to fit. I will get a picture later.
So we move on. Next is the steering column, I have over 25 hours already in the column, it is quite complex to assemble.
Looks like a nice job. Was it pricey?
Just over $1000.
Of course I could have purchased the LocknStitch kit and done it myself for one third to half that price.
Here are the pictures showing the minor changes to make the magneto coil ring match the Block.
Originally the inner circle of metal was smooth and had to be ground to miss the Block. On the other side a little casting mark needed the ring to be cut to clear.
Just interesting as in the past I have always been impressed how interchangeable the parts are from different years. Certainly not true on this 09
I am still painting the steering column, most of the bits are ready.
Today I decided to try an installation of the wheels. Readers may remember that the wheels are all new, with custom made hubs. This allows the rear wheels to externally look like an 09 but actually use the tapered axles. The rear wheels fitted without any problems but installing the split pin will be interesting. The front wheel hubs also appear to be new and the bearing races seem a little loose.
The major downer is that the hub cap threads do not match the Ford hub caps. :-(
I guess I should see if the hub threads can be fixed, they have too great a diameter, but reworking the caps would be easier.
After the repair, is the face of the block flat where the timing cover will fit? Or, will the block face gap away from the cover due to the original injury that cracked the block?
I would think a competent machinist could rethread the hubs to the proper pitch and diameter on a lathe.
That will probably mean disassembling the wheels :-(
Tony; If the thread count is correct and the sizing isn't too far off try and find someone with an original thread clean-up tool. It may be able to safely remove enough material without disassembling the wheels. I'm not sure, but it's worth a try.
Tony, I have an early brake lever for sale, I'll check for any extra 09-10 brake rods.
I have made some progress on two items.
Eventually I was satisfied with the paint on the steering column so I completed the assembly. The very early columns were quite similar to the later designs except it is six inches shorter. So I cut six inches off the column and both control rods and then reworked to add key ways, tapers and holes for the various levers and retaining springs. I then tried the complete assembly on the chassis with the firewall, it looks good.
Fitting the rods is quite a procedure. First they were brass plated, then both halves of the top tinned, the the rods installed and the two halves riveted and the soldered together.
The second 09 related task for the day was to investigate the none fitting hub caps. I found a regular hub cap fitted the front hubs once the paint had been removed. I then confirmed the 09 caps have a smaller inner diameter than the regular cap. New caps are $16 from the suppliers but I decided to try and rework them to fit. If my work fails, then I’ll buy new.
My 09 hub caps are quite substantial and are quite thick. So I placed one in the lathe and cut if until the inner diameter was the same as a later cap. Then I recut the threads in the 09 hub until it fitted the paint removed front hub. I’m no expert on the lathe, Lee Pierce was my mentor for many years, so now I have to feel my way very slowly. Anyhow one down, with three to go.
While waiting for steering column paint to dry and thinking about the hub caps, I did a few other tasks.
I found the body number under the front seat (B7264), just the same as the 14 Touring.
The other task was to clean the Kingston 5 ball carb. The ball bearings were stuck and I purchased some fresh carb cleaner to solve that issue.
Progress! A fantastic car, and it is going to be better than it has been in a hundred years!
Fun to see, thanks Tony for keeping us up to date. Question, you noted the body number (B7264) and said "same as the 1914" do you mean the number was in the same place on both, or that the number B7264 was the same ?
Same location. :-)
You have yourself quite a job, Tony. But if anyone can do it, you can!
Today I pulled the transmission apart. It is similar to the later design but with subtle differences.
First there are 13 big and 13 small clutch disks and one very thick small. The triple gear bushings do not have the large boss on the flywheel end.
The Brake drum is slightly different and doesn’t have the three large washers.
The inner clutch disk has more holes in the side but they are smaller diameter. I had to grind my puller a little more.
I also disassembled the clutch spring pack and there are several differences. Biggest is a key between the output shaft and the sliding boss that is between the spring and the three fingers. In addition there are a couple of large washers either end of the spring and a fancy cast ring to hold the spring pin.
Finally look at the fancy magnets. Kim tells me they’ve don't hold the magnetism too well. :-(
Hope this was interesting, we’re making real progress on the chassis and engine, it should be running in the foreseeable future.
That's the first I've seen the early magnets. Thanks for sharing this project. It's fascinating!
Tony, I'm sure it's very interesting to anyone who is curious about the evolution of the Model T. Thank you for letting us peek at the "innards" !
Today I took the flywheel to a local enthusiast who has re-charged magnets with great success. Our experiences are documented under the thread “Recharging T magnets“
I am still trying to learn more about the differences in the early transmissions. Many things, I have heard of before, but usually poorly described and few pictures. So I really can't follow all the changes. I have some early transmission parts, but not enough of them for me to put together a real early transmission. However, I still hope to one day.
Thank you! You filled in several of my questions.
Now I need to check out your "recharge" thread. Haven't seen it yet.
Fancy magnets is correct, they're even stamped "N" on the north pole. I think that's a beautiful photo. :-)
Only part of the trans I don't recognize is the washer that apparently goes over/under the retaining ring with the pin. Do you have the early fourth main with the thick babbitt flange on the engine side? Interesting to see the evolution and try to figure out why changes were made. Its even more instructive when you tear into an NRS.
I picked up the 09 Block from Antique Engine and today I saw the guys on a tour around Fallbrook.
The complaints about the poor accuracy of the parts continues:
1. When they installed the tooling to machine the Babbitt, they had to add 0.016” shims between the Block and the base of the Block to get the camshaft bar to install correctly.
2. The second complaint was that the three pair of main bearing bolt holes are not in line. Apparently the center pair are about 0.015” out of line.
To be honest the first item may not be a Ford tolerance problem, the base could have been machined over the past 108 years. I instructed Locknstitch not to machine the base, they did ask..... However the out of line was definitely done by the Ford employees.
The problems will flow on, lifting the line borer up that 16thou to get cam to crank centre line/cam gear mesh, will now need the pan lifted the same amount to keep a correct centre line on the ballcap, I've got away with using 2 gaskets before to allow for it.
The 09 kit of parts included four newly standard sized babbitted connecting rods. Yesterday I tried to fit them on the new Scat crank. Naturally they don’t fit, they appear to be the correct diameter but too wide. The Scat crank appears to be 1.500” between crank throws while the rod Babbitt is over 0.015” wider. I scrapped the width down to 1.488” and the rounded the edges to the correct 1/16” radius. I used lots of Prussian Blue and below is a picture of one rod.
In chatting with our local babbitting guru at Antique Engine, he advises side clearance of 0.015” so there is a little more work to do before I can take the next step.
Tony, Model T rods should be cut to 1.500 wide, but if Scat has chosen to make their cranks that wide. Model T Rods should be cut .005 to .007 thousandths side clearance.
Anything over .010 to .012 will start breaking flanges off.
Get them straight, Twist, Bend, and Off Set.
Bearing Blue will work OK for Hogging out a lot of Babbitt, but when you get down to finishing, don't use anything. Just get the bearing tighter, turn it over a few times, and scrape the dark spots off. Just try it.
You just can't get Blue thin enough for finish work.
Thanks Herm for the idea of looking for dark spots. They are tough to see (for me) but they are there. :-)
I tried to connect the transmission to the flywheel, no surprise, it doesn’t fit. The pins are too large in diameter. Measuring accurately and repeatably is not my strong point but they seem to be about 0.0015” too large in diameter. Of course to get the pins out of the flywheel, I had to disassemble the transmission :-(
I gave up in disgust and will take a break.....
The pins would be fine, it's the triple gear bushings that need to be reamed to the right clearances to fit.
He's talking about the two locating pins between the crankshaft and the flywheel.
Jerry is correct, sorry if I caused confusion.
I have been asked several times about the inner ring that hold the clutch spring in compression. In the later T’s the metal top hat pressing has a built in retainer for the spring. Not so on the early clutches, there is a retaining ring which transfers the thrust from the pin to the simpler top hat pressing. The ring is quite a fancy casting and has at least three machining steps.
You can see how it is machined on both sides and then a hole drilled thru the center.
(Message edited by Tony_bowker on November 15, 2017)
I decided to do a temporary assembly of the remaining engine parts to see if there were any surprises in store for me. There was........
The fourth main bearing is hitting the ring pin holder from the previous entry in the thread.
I took off the hogs head :-(
You can see on the existing fourth main that it has been touching something. I hope that when I remove a little from the newly babbitted fourth main, it will still clear the back of the top hat spring retainer. :-)
4th mains for early cars were different. Thicker babbitt with a flange that rode against the spring ring. Looks to me like you've got the ring backwards.
I removed the pan, then pulled the top hat and clutch spring. The pin ring was wrong way round, I could see where the fourth main had been rubbing. I ground about 0.100” from the back side of the ring. Then I made a washer to fit inside the top hat to move the top hat forward by the thickness of the washer. I re-assembled and replace the pan and now there is a very small gap between the front of the fourth main and the pin ring. If necessary I can remove 0.050” from the front of the fourth main.
Making progress, slow but reasonably sure.
Thank you for taking the time post pictures along with write ups. I have been following both threads. I enjoy the learning experience while watching your progress (and occasional setbacks).
The engine assembly is coming together nicely , just waiting for the piston to arrive from Egge. I have the timer completed but waiting on the 7/32x32 die to modify the commutator rod.
Just like on the later timer, one of the terminals is very close to the fan belt :-)
Next decision is how to start the motor, should I put on some junk wheels and tow it or use the hand crank !
Why the bright green paint?
I was looking for inexpensive spray can of paint and I thought (wrong)) that it would look like the dark green I have on the chassis. I’ll probably repaint. Bah
Your whole problem is your garage is too neat and clean .
Have a Happy Thanksgiving, and Scott and Carolyn and the boys too!
Bob and Marilyn
Tony, That timer looks like the 2nd version where flat head screws go all the way thru the timer body, fiber, and cover. The two long screws that are used to thread the thumb nuts onto (to hold the cover in place) should be in-line with the arm, not as they are currently assembled. The long screws and the short screws should be interchanged. This should provide more clearance to the fan belt.
Tony ; Now it is time to check your magneto output.
Here is what the timer should look like in the fully retarded position.
Was that green paint "heat resistant engine paint?"
This photo shows the correct location of the long through bolts on the timer.
Thanks for the pictures showing the correct position of the retaining screws. I’ve now fixed it.
I tried the manifolds today, both seem OK but should something screw into the air intake of the carb?
When assembling the rods and pistons a friend lent me some of his tools. He recommends Time Saver and it did a great job to finish off the rod bearing after I had used the Prussian Blue. One fixture verifies the lack of twist and correct alignment of the rod. The second measures the weight of the rod at the crank end. I was surprised how repeatable it is, within a gram or 0.05 oz if my eyes read the scale correctly.
One rod was quite light, so I used a longer bolt and all the rods are now within 0.1 oz. I am still waiting for pistons so they will be balanced as soon as they arrive.
I don’t believe the 5 Ball Carburetors came with an intake attachment, but here is what Kim Dobbins sold me.
Well my fourth piston arrived, adjusted it so it was within a gram or so of the other three and completed the short Block. Then I completed the transmission and installed in the pan. Then I tried the hogs head again and there was still a little interference when I installed the new fourth main bearing. There was a small burr in the hogs head catching the fourth main. Typical of the past month or so. Now the motor is in the chassis and my restored firewall with polished brass is now on the chassis.
Today I completed the steering and adjusted the toe in. Finally I started to work on the control rod for the commutator. What a pain, spent two hours already and still not quite correct. It runs on the front of the commutator and I’m getting interference from the fan belt and the arm touching the fancy finger nut for #3 coil.
I guess I’m making progress, I’ve stopped keeping a record of my time on this project, just too depressing. No wonder the previous owner had problems getting reasonable professional quote. At my normal rate for friends, I couldn’t afford it, never mind the two to three times higher rate charged by a professional shop.
Thanks for the update! I love to see someone making good progress on a worthy project.
I like it! Great pics! Thanks for sharing.
I like it! Great pics! Thanks for sharing.
Keep in mind the timing rod needs to go around the lower water hose and miss the timing screw when fully retarded.
Instead of bending your own rods, you may want to try these:
The darker green engine paint looks much better than the earlier John Deere green
Thanks Rod, I had not found the commutator control rod for the 09/10.
The name for the later commutator control rod while the 1909-10 name is timer adjusting rod.
I wonder why the name changed.
This morning I went to the barn with the picture and now it is done with full retard just after TDC. While I was on a roll I installed the exhaust and inlet manifold, then the carb control rod. Rest of the day is family time.
Now I know where the term “hogshead” comes from. The regular transmission cover isn’t too difficult especially out of the car but Oh My Goodness the early square one is a real bitch.
I did low band with no problem, the Brake is tough because there is not too much room to get fingers in the turn the nut. So I moved the pedal and the nut went on.
The reverse is much worse. This time there is NO room to move fingers and holding the nut with pliers and moving the pedal to get the thread started was REAL FUN. In both the Brake and reverse there is no room to get a wrench in to tighten the nuts. I jammed a screwdriver onto the band and slowly tightened the nut at 1/6 turn at a time.
Has anyone solved the problem?
I won’t be putting much mileage on gas 09 :-)
I don't know Ed... Dusenbergs have "money green" engines too ;)
I don’t know what Kevin means, probably a message for a different thread.
The engine and chassis are almost complete and we should be ready to start the motor very shortly, though we’ll be interrupted the the holidays. One hose clip must be wrong as it was too big and the “breather” hole on the left front of the block needs blocking off. Oh yes, I also have to install a gas line.
I put the body and some older wheels so we can tow it around for that first start. It is tighter than I hoped for, but the town car rebuild was similar.
I am one body bracket missing so that will keep me entertained the rest of the afternoon.
Kim tells me that the side lamp brackets and the plates around the pedals should be brass plated, more work for Don Chidgey.
Is Don still doing brass work ? I knew the Chidgey family when they resided in Seattle many, many years ago.
Tony, the side light brackets should be brass plates, the pedal plates should be solid brass.
Jack and Don are still around, with Don doing most of the physical work and Jack (and Doris) most of the front office work. Their office has moved from downtown San Diego to an industrial park in El Cajon. Most of their work is musical instruments and decorative household items, but they still have their early cars and welcome like minded customers.
Well not really but frustrating. With the wheels on with keys and tight nuts, I tried to push the car and failed. So I jacked up one wheel and with the clutch disengaged I still couldn’t turn the wheel. I think I have too many disks in the clutch. As I remember there were 13 big and 13 small and one thick small. They were all in the clutch box and I assumed (ass of u and me) that’s how it was when it last ran. On reflection I bet the thick one was found more recently and just put in the box marked clutch. :-(
No problem, I’ll pull the motor and look at the clutch more carefully, I expect I didn’t notice the problem previously as I didn’t have the keys in the wheel hubs and the axle turned in the hub. Grrrrr
I may take the opportunity to change the flywheel to one with a ring gear and use a later hogs head to get the motor running in the test stand. Once it runs and has freed up, I’ll go back to the correct hogs head and flywheel. We’ll see how it goes. All it takes is time.... :-)
See this thread on the disk count and distance plate.
Also with a one piece pan the later hogshead I don't think the later hogs head will fit, but I am not sure (based on the description saying 'wider', below).
From the encyclopedia:
3100 (T1586D, E)
Similar to 1910. Beginning in February a new magneto was used and a new, wider, square-hole transmission cover and pan was introduced. This new pan was still "one-piece" but had shallower troughs than the 1909-10 type. About 44,400 (March), the pan with the removable bottom plate appeared. The inspection plate was of heavier metal than the common type, had deeper troughs (7/8" vs 11/16") than the later types, and was embossed around the edges. The inspection plate retaining collar was one piece and was riveted in place. The riveting is believed to have been discontinued during the year. Deep "teacup" oil drain.
The "wide" square-hole cover was a short lived part near the end of one-piece pan usage in early 1911 and required a matching pan.
I often wonder, as I do not know the answer. Of course, many "early style" pans with no access cover are remakes made from '12 to '14 style (or sometimes with a bit more work, even later) pans. Several people did very nice work making these as few real early pans survived relative to the number of '09/'10/'11 cars restored. (I believe it was Ron Brown in Auburn near here in Califunny that was well known for making excellent ones for many years, the last few after he passed away sold for serious money.) Also, a lot of square door hogsheads are repo castings made in the '50s through '70s. How many of those repo hogshead castings are the correct earlier narrow size? How many are made to fit the later pans modified to pass for earliest? The modified pans would almost certainly need to be kept at later width as the labor to rework the entire shape and edges would be more than the total replacement of the bottom crankshaft area.
The "real" original enclosed (no access cover) pans in the wide width were a short term and rare item, as was the wider late square door hogshead. The "real" early narrow no access pans are also quite rare, as are the original narrow earlier square door hogsheads (all half dozen variations!).
All this goes to confuse and confound people with these special early model Ts. And leads to my concern, and question. I have many times assured people that they could put a starter gear flywheel into a '12 to '16 brass era T for future use of a starter, and that the hogshead and starter (with some adapting around the firewall) could be used on those era pans.
However. What about the earlier narrow pans and hogsheads? I would think that the later and starter era hogshead would not fit on the earlier narrow pan. I have never had the opportunity to work with one that early. So don't have first-hand experience with them. But I have been told and read several times that the narrow pan must have the narrow hogshead ('09/'10//early '11). Also, if the pan and hogshead are even slightly more narrow? Will the starter gear safely clear the narrow pan? I do not know. But would like to. I do try to keep most facts straight.
It also might be important to know if you are wanting to put a starter gear into an early T.
If I remember right your pan is one that is 'made up' of a later pan, and if so and it will fit the later hogs head I think you should do it now, while you can. It may allow you to drive the car for some extra years if cranking becomes a problem. I'm in the process of building up a 'later' transmission for my '11 for that reason. I'm removing the entire original transmission and magnet ring and installing a later one, and will keep the '11 transmission and mag ring on the shelf, to keep with the care.
In the event it becomes difficult for you to crank the car it would also probably be difficult for you to make the change at that time.
Please keep us posted!!!
The 14 Touring is my “can longer crank car” so the 09 will be sold when I can no longer crank. Interestingly, when I built the Town Car I did just as you suggest. The aluminum hogs head is sitting under the car so I don’t sell it by accident.
Today was a good day, I now have the 09 engine running.
After the clutch problem, I had too many thin disks in the clutch housing. Of course to get to the disks, I had to remove the motor from the chassis and then pull the block off the pan. I had an old starter flywheel and installed it on the crankshaft and put it all back on the pan. The starter hogs head didn’t quite line up with the bolt holes in the pan, so I used four 3/8 bolts and four 5/16 and it seemed to hold quite well. I used a T starter which had been modified for 12 volt operation and it started the motor fairly easily. Of course oil poured out of the holes with no bolts but they were blocked with paper for the test.
There was one more surprise, the exhaust manifold has a crack between the exhaust ports two and three.
So in the new year, tomorrow, I will start to rebuild the motor with the correct flywheel and re-install the whole mess back in the chassis. I suppose I’ll have to start a new thread to record my progress or lack of it. :-)
Tony, It sounds like you have one step forward and three steps back. I thought it only happened to me. When I work on my T, I always say "wonder what next opportunity will show its self". To fix, repair, or find the correct part for whatever I'm working on. Keep up the good work, and thanks for sharing your restoration with us.