Metal piece found by magneto plug contact

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Metal piece found by magneto plug contact
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Barcelona area (Spain) on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 06:42 pm:

While trying to do an in-car magneto charge on a friend's 1913 Roadster I found a loose piece of metal lying on top of the magneto coil assembly. I removed it along with some chunks of band lint.

The piece is flat steel, slightly thicker than a hacksaw blade. It's about 2 inches long. I don't recognise the piece as a Model T part.

I made five attempts at the recharge but no luck. After pulling this piece out of the transmission I hoped the magneto recharge would finally work but to no avail. The magneto puts out 1 volt versus the previous .5 volt, but that's just not going to get it.

Does anybody recognise this metal piece, have any idea what it is or what it could have been used for?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 06:58 pm:

I don't have a clue...any chance its a .035" feeler blade?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Barcelona area (Spain) on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 07:05 pm:

I didn't have the means to measure it at the time. It is smooth along the top edge (as pictured) but the bottom edge is rough, so it either got chewed on in the engine or more likely was cut and no finishing was done afterwards.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john hardiman on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 07:51 pm:

Ah! Could be some object someone accidentally dropped in the inspection port on the hogshead.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 07:55 pm:

That piece probably has a smaller partner jabbed into the field coil windings somewhere.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Barcelona area (Spain) on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 08:13 pm:

The coil windings measured 0.9 Ohms on the 200 Ohm scale.

The owner tells me he has seen one coil is damaged by the starter bendix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 08:49 pm:

Is it cast ? With a curve like that I sure hope it's not a chunk out of a transmission drum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 09:01 pm:

You will probably need to replace or rewind the magneto coils, so the engine and transmission will need to come out. At that time you can do a thorough inspection to see what that piece is and where it came from. Then the fix will depend on what you find.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 10:01 pm:

A piece of the longer style oil funnel?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, October 30, 2017 - 10:06 pm:

It looks like a piece of a transmission drum to me.
Is it curved?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Barcelona area (Spain) on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 - 12:36 pm:

The piece is flat and not cast.

It is thicker than the steel used for the oil funnel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 - 12:45 pm:

Is it a broken shard from a magnet?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Barcelona area (Spain) on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 - 12:54 pm:

It looks like flat rolled steel, same thickness all the way across the 2 inch length.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 - 03:58 pm:

I can't think of anything inside a T engine that it would likely be a part of? Likely an outside piece of junk dropped in at some point. There are of course a few inside possibles, piece torn off clutch disc, shim used to space the field coil from the flywheel? But it doesn't really look like those.
The really low voltage could be an indication of a short to ground part way around the field coils. It also could be the result of several other things. How sure are you about the lineup of the magnets and field coils when you tried your recharge? Polarity?
I am not a well versed expert on magnetics or recharging, but I know it can be tricky. I have done two over the years where I had a lot of trouble getting the magnets to accept the recharge. According to what I have and had read, the magnets should recharge in either polarity. But my experience says otherwise. In those two occasions, the magnets would not accept the charge in the direction I tried first. However, after I switched the recharge effort to the opposite polarity, they did accept the new recharge.
One of those flywheels had likely been discharged (way in the past) by connecting wrong voltage onto the magneto post while the engine was running. The magnets were so completely discharged that I couldn't even determine what the polarity was. When I went to recharge them as a unit (like an in car recharge), numerous attempts resulted in only a slight ability to magnetically lift a small bolt (nowhere near the desired piston or small hammer). After several failed attempts, I simply reversed the polarity, changing nothing else, and hit it again. The polarity reversed back from what I had previously done, and the magnets would now hold a small hammer. Another couple shocks and the strength was up to where it was desired.
So, I don't know. What I have read said they should have recharged in either direction? But what I have seen makes me doubt that.
That is my experience with recharging these.
Most likely, however, is the field coil ring will need to be rebuilt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Barcelona area (Spain) on Tuesday, October 31, 2017 - 09:35 pm:

It's been a long time since I recharged the magnets in the car, but this time it was especially elusive. Maybe I should have tried charging at the oposite polarity like you did Wayne...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, November 01, 2017 - 10:15 pm:

I have been told by experts that it shouldn't work that way! But I have had it work that way twice now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Barcelona area (Spain) on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 02:26 pm:

What didn't work was getting the magnets to self align with the coil ring by jacking up a rear wheel, removing spark plugs and engaging direct gear. Tried it 5 times but the flywheel never moved even a millimeter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willard Revaz on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 03:11 pm:

I retrieved several similar pieces from an engine I had. It is a piece of the steel lugs placed over the clutch drum disc bosses for more durability. Commonplace on the later drums but may have been placed on earlier drums as well. They have drained out with an oil change or get stuck to a magnet. Looks like your piece may have been chewed up when getting caught in the gears.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 05:19 pm:

Apparently this 1913 is wearing a 1919 or later hogshead and a starter. If so, it's quite possible the owner is right about Bendix damage to the coil ring. Fixing that will require pulling the engine/transmission, as Norm says. That will be the time to inspect all the guts and see if the source of that chunk is evident.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, November 02, 2017 - 06:58 pm:

Willard R's suggestion for what it may be sounds very likely to me. I didn't think of that one myself as I usually work on earlier Ts. I have had a couple later transmissions (and even one of the rare late narrow drums with the hardened lugs for the clutch), so when reminded, the dim glow light came on!
Some people like to put those late drums into their earlier Ts because the clutch usually works more smoothly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Saturday, November 04, 2017 - 05:36 am:

A few years ago the replacement lugs were made wrong. They were breaking, could be one of those. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Saturday, November 04, 2017 - 06:46 pm:

If it's two inches long, it's not a shoe off the brake drum lug.


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