A pet peeve: Tacky modern hardware

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: A pet peeve: Tacky modern hardware
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 02:37 pm:


The guys who "restored" my 1923 touring did OK on a lot of it, but they blew it with their use of Phillips screws and other modern hardware. One of the worst things I sometimes see is glaringly modern hardware that's had black paint shot on the cad plating and the paint is now flaking off. Tacky, tacky, tacky. On the left are the bolts I removed from my car, and on the right are the old bolts that will replace them after prepping and painting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 02:46 pm:

Worse than tacky. I've found new-fangled carriage bolts have the "button" head spot-welded to the bolt shank. In several instances (not T related) I've had the head pop off, something that could be potentially dangerous. Beware of junk fasteners !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 03:54 pm:

At least the Phillips screws prove that the car has been reworked and not original. As for the carriage bolt heads. I had good luck making wheel rim rivets out of old ones but the new ones did come apart as mentioned.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 04:19 pm:

I know the people at the hardware store see me and want to hide thinking,"here comes this guy with the obsession for flathead screws." It's like this nut here for the top L-iron. I ordered it from a vendor, and it is described as "special nut" which it is, except it's not. I have the original on the other side and it's at least a 1/16" taller and not rounded off as much. Nobody ever says anything but it drives me nuts looking at it. I guess I'll just have to buy a whole assembly on eBay or somewhere and keep the nut and sell the extra parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 05:22 pm:

Corey, I'll bet some of these folks selling their old parts would make you a good deal on a nut or the whole bracket. There should be many around. Also, a 1/2" heavy nut looks almost right even if it is a bit larger hex. With some kind of thread insert that might work.
Just some thoughts.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter McIntyre on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 06:51 pm:

Steve I share your pain . Add to the list modern fuel filters with two inches of black hose either side and gear clamps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 07:22 pm:

One of my biggest challenges on the Martin Parry cab build is correct hardware. Spent hours sorting through cans and boxes of screws and carriage bolts to find what I need. Filing numbers off new carriage bolts. It is worth it to have them look period though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 07:31 pm:

New stuff all made in CHINA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Thomas on Sunday, November 05, 2017 - 08:16 pm:

I polish the modern markings off the carnage bolts. Also the modern square nuts are way different than the old ones. Almost impossible to find partially threaded bolts, Etc. I have made a lot of new nuts and bolts myself.. no other option.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 05:48 am:

Dallas, no doubt you have thought about this, but chuck the carriage bolts in a drill press and use a file. :-) Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire (La Florida!) on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 07:43 am:

I bought several of these from big box in various sizes

they are called rod coupler nuts i chuck this up in a lathe or drill press and then use a file to remove modern markings and I don't have to worry about messing up the threads.
One word of caution modern carriage bolts have a smaller "Square" and will spin inside the old square holes even though the thread size is the same as the older bolt,Hard to find but I have several different sizes of "Hollow" square stock I use to make adapters in such situations. hope this makes sense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 08:39 am:

Well on my thread about the body I am working to assemble out of oak,I made the statement I will be using Phillips screws.
The thing is for me just holding a screwdriver is getting difficult.The arthritis in my hands is getting worse.I can not make a tight fist with my right hand any more. When working i spend a 1/3 of the time on any project just picking up dropped tools.Working on my 78 f350 over the weekend I started using a magnet on a long handle to save me climbing down off the truck so much.
A slotted screw,the driver fly's out the side and cathunk,I have a mark on my project that no sandpaper will take out,whereas the Phillips bit in a cordless drill running slow,if I can hold the tool straight,it seems to stay in the head of the screw better.
Now I did read the paper work and the plans for the wood body and bought special drill bits for the size screws I am working with.It seems that will make matters much easier.I hope so.:-)
I have not started the assembly yet,but when I do,if there is a screw that is visible on the finished product,It would make sense to later go back and swap the screw for a correct slotted 1.The hole will be there and ready and it won't take much to get the screw in with a hand tool.But right now, I am looking at getting it assembled and working,worry about details later.
As for carriage head bolts,yep I polish off the markings. I gather old bolts and when fee-sable I swap out for the correct stuff.
My thing is I like square nuts where they are visible and appropriate.Hard to find but lucky I got a bunch of 3/8ths back when i was working as they were used to hold signs to wood post with 4.5 inch carriage head bolts. They were to be tossed as we upgraded to metal post.I saved buckets full of them over 14 years. :-)

Some of this issue goes back to the idea if they had Phillips screws back in the day,they would probably have used them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 08:45 am:

Mack I pre drill all the holes for screws. Run my screw gun slow speed with straight bit and still have a couple oops. Pre drill helps keep them straight even with phillips.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Koke Twigg-Smith on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 09:08 am:

Hey guys - there is a special drive bit for slotted screws that has a spring loaded skirt that slides over the head and eliminates slot slip. Iíve used these for years, they work great.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Koke Twigg-Smith on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 09:11 am:

Hey guys - there is a special drive bit for slotted screws that has a spring loaded skirt that slides over the head and eliminates slot slip. Iíve used these for years, they work great.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Codman on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 10:08 am:

I don't have a problem with Phillips screws in places that don't show, but they drive me crazy in places that do. About a year ago I took a ride in the EAA's Ford Tri-Motor. I immediately noticed the Phillips screws holding many of the window moldings. Since these are in a non-structural application, FAA-approved AN type fasteners are not required.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 01:13 pm:

Not quite, Hal! Almost all my new fasteners are Made in USA!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 01:30 pm:

Koke,can you illustrate the tool you speak of? Or post a link?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter McIntyre on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 08:57 pm:

Also take a cake of bees wax and rub it the length of the threaded section to provide lubricant.you will definitely feel the difference


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Monday, November 06, 2017 - 09:09 pm:

Mack, I think this is what Koke was referring to. This was pulled from the Lowes page


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Tuesday, November 07, 2017 - 12:53 am:

R.V.

Where do you get them? I buy mine from ACE


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Tuesday, November 07, 2017 - 12:59 am:

RV,

Where do you buy yours? I buy from ACE.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry & Sharon Miller, Westminster, CO on Tuesday, November 07, 2017 - 08:04 am:

Peter mentioned using beeswax to lube the threads. Excellent idea. Makes the screws go in much easier and less chance of cam out on the head, causing damage.

Another option, usually less expensive and very readily available: Toilet bowl seal. The wax ring you use to seal the bowl to the waste drain in the floor. Nice thing about a toilet bowl seal is it's softer than beeswax, sticks to the threads better, and doesn't flake off.

I take a bowl seal and squish it into an old, clean, deodorant container (the ones that screw up from the bottom to dispense the deodorant). Keeps it clean, fresh, and as you use the wax, you can dispense more of it as needed.

Good Luck,
Terry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jon Crane on Tuesday, November 07, 2017 - 08:20 am:

I use Ivory soap to lube the screw threads. Works great and easy cleanup. Wax and other oils sometimes stain the wood making final finish difficult.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Tuesday, November 07, 2017 - 08:29 am:

I used a bar of soap to lube the threads of the wood screws when building my 21 Touring body wood.
The soap worked pretty good. Also pre drilling the holes is almost a must.

I wonder if Ford predrilled the holes when screwing the wood body structures together when they were being built.

In the remains of T wooden body structures I've seen over the years the slot head screws would usually look to be in good shape and not rounded out or stripped. How ever they did it they did a good job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Tuesday, November 07, 2017 - 09:10 am:

Soap is great for brass screws but will rust steel ones. Bowl gasket wax is good; so is Crisco. Old-timers used lard.

Hal, I was referring to the fasteners that I make and have made for me. Only a small percentage of those are made overseas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, November 07, 2017 - 10:56 am:

I like original fasteners. In fact I go out of my way to find them. Many of them I've found at Bob's and Langs, and Hershey. I'm more or less obsessed with them. I also use RV's stuff, because he has it done right, especially his early king pins (spindle bolts). If I have to use a modern bolt, I remove the symbol on the head that many of them have, and get rid of the plating to make the bolt resemble what should be there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, November 08, 2017 - 05:19 pm:

I was amused by Mac's note that if they had Phillips head screws back in the days, they would have used them!

They did in fact have a alternative to slot head screws back in the days. In fact it was even better than Phillips head screws, Robinson screws. These have the square recessed holes in the head, much like modern screws requiring an Allen key to drive them. Square holes are even better than hex holes. Canadian Fords use them in the bodies. They are available still.

With a better alternative available, why weren't they used by Ford USA? I believe the reason was Henry would not agree to pay a license fee/royalty to use others' good ideas.

I could be wrong, again.
Allan from down under.


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