I'm sure this has been brought up at some time in the past.
It seems Model T people, and apparently more so with MTFCA members, are extremely divided. One side of the fence is: Totally Original or NOTHING. The other side of the fence is: Do whatever makes you happy.
WHY is there so much animosity between the two sides?
Is it better to have more people enjoying their hobby, Model Ts, or is it better to be truly dedicated to originality? It would seem, the more of us contributing to the T world, would make things better for all of us. More Ts on the road, being restored, being shown, or just dreamed about, would expand the exposure of the hobby to others, contribute to the economy, draw vendors into making and selling more and different parts, OR is it better to have ONLY original Ts in the public eye, showing how things really used to be but are no more?
I just read a post where one person really berated another for NOT being 100% true to originality. On the other hand, I don't remember anyone jumping on someone for being original.
I thought this forum was supposed to be for all who enjoy, or want to enjoy, this hobby. For each of us to contribute, to the whole, what we each have knowledge in, even if it is off topic. For example: there was a Kidde fire extinguisher recall announced. A great service to the community. BUT, it wasn't original. Should he have been admonished or thanked? Fire extinguishers were NOT original but are a very needed safety item.
I am sure of one thing: This thread will NOT change any of the original feelings. There will still be two sides fighting and dividing the community instead of uniting and spreading the desire to be in the great T world. Maybe I can expand my understanding and knowledge.
Flame On, I can take it.
Hey, Terry, I ain't mad if you ain't.
Terry, Maybe division is the norm in your area, but I, personally, don't see it that way, and I'm sure many other owners don't either. Maybe in my younger years, I might have leaned toward originality, but here is my 'take', now: 1. If a owner chooses to restore 100% authentic, its because: A. the car is going to be entered in professional judging B. the car is going into a museum or C. the car has sentimentality to the owner and he wants to keep it as original as possible. 2. Some owner's cars will never be entered in professional judging and are owned for the enjoyment of the owner, such as a tour car or daily driver car. This includes speedster and other body types that were not Ford factory produced and where the owner might make changes in the car for safety and performance without drastically altering the appearance of the car. 3. The car is a 'Rip Van Winkle' unrestored car 4. The car is made up from a collection of parts, such as a Rat Rod (which I am not fond of the term; why not call it a jalopy?) Live and let live. If a person has a difference of opinion with another person's car, they need to keep it to them self and respect other owner's feelings. Personally, I have a 26 fordor that has a sure stop brake kit for safety, and a 27 coupe that was my grandfather's that is as original as I can get it, even though it will never be professionally judged. It does have a Ruxtel axle, appearance accessories, and internal engine mods that change it from the way it was when Grandad owned it, but I'm OK with that.
Terry Woods, I would think a car with a v8 Save in ain't a jalopy either.. Dave in Bellingham,WA
Terry Woods, I would think a car with a v8 ain't a jalopy either.. Dave in Bellingham, WA SORRY
Hey,bottom line it's their car! If they have the time,patience,money and intestinal fortitude to make it better than original and haul it on a trailer everywhere it goes and it makes them happy to do that here's a smiley face for them.
If on the other hand funds are limited,time is a precious commodity and you just want to make it roadworthy and safe so that you can enjoy the smiles of others as you drive by here is a smiley face for you too!
A T in a garage is better than a T sent to scrap. Not sure why some people need to make it harder than this.
I'm of the camp, it's your car, enjoy it as you please. I agree, if a stickler for originality can't make a reasonable comment, then don't. Their comment won't change anything aside from the recipients attitude towards that person. It is a fun hobby and we enjoyed it while we were active but heaven forbid a purist is going to tell me my side curtain windows have too much clear as compared to original. Safety trumps originality on everything but a show queen.
As many of you know I like original. But, at the same time I really like to tour, and regularly go on out of state tours. I usually put about 1000 miles a year on my cars. Because of this I have a Ruckstell, real Rocky Mountain brakes, a 280 cam, and a turbo 400 clutch. BUT, I like to keep the parts of the car that show as original as possible. If you wish to paint your car purple, that's ok too, but I can't understand why!
First off .....
The overwhelming majority of the users of this forum are not dues paying members of the MTFCA.
By “ users “ I mean folks who regularly read this forum.
Some register & never post - some never register and never post - a few post regularly.
Have met a lot of Model T owners over the years - the majority do not seem to impose their personal beliefs on others - that includes how they may feel about Model T vehicles being altered or modified for various reasons.
From a practical standpoint - there are only a relatively few Model T vehicles in existence that remain in the exact same condition they were in when originally sold.
Probably not a big deal because:
#1- Most people that participate in this forum are here because it is a form of entertainment.
#2- A very large percentage of Model T owners don’t belong to any sort of club, or spend much time looking at Internet forums.
#3- If these forums are archived and accessible in the future, odds are pretty good that anyone doing any serious research will likely understand that there is a lot of inaccuracies in people’s opinions. And a lot of opinions get stated as facts.
David S. a steel bodied T with any engine other than the original is a T with an engine that isn't original. This has been going on since Model T days. My Dad told me the story of a car that he and his older brother built during the late teens-early twenties, from junk yard parts. I've forgotten whether it was a Maxwell chassis with a T engine, or a T chassis with a Maxwell engine. I suspect the later. With the advent of the flathead V8, engine swaps, accelerated and went to "the floor" with the advent of the small block Chevy.
Well the divide would have a grey area for the "assembled" vehicles that are T parts but not a complete original 1 refurbished.
Build it to suit you or within your resources and just tell the critics,"hey,donations accepted for the "correct" parts anytime!
Thank You Esteemed Members.
In my locale, there are purists that do not say anything about other's Ts, but you can tell it irks them.
I am specifically talking about posters on this forum. Such basic safety items as fire extinguishers and fuses cause such an outburst of disdain, it's hard to understand. Threads from long ago show this as much as current threads do.
So far, we have not heard from both sides. This thread is to welcome all views so I, and others, can better understand if there is a problem and exactly what that problem might be.
Thank You All,
Here’s my two cents....
I’m a fence sitter...but bottom line ,,if it’s a Model T ,,it’s gotta be a Model T....
At age 13/14 ,I’m 69 years old now , there was a man two miles away that restoring Model T..I would ride my bike there hoping his garage door was open ,so I could look at his car...The cars he restored were perfect,,”Over-Restored”....The cast iron Look was gone on the engine...The axle looked like it was cast plastic....the paint on every part was as nice as fenders ...When I bought my truck($25.00) ,I got started ...Grinding,sanding..primering ,sanding ,primer,sanding,painting ....It had to look like “George Webster’s”....I’m not sure how many hours I had in that thing...My friends would tease me ,wondering why I would spend so much time on a project that would only go 23 mph...7.25 gears ya know...ten years and I never drove it once,,but what was done ,,sure looked good...when I moved out of my folks house and got married,, I sold the TT Panel Truck...$750.00..We bought a couch and loveseat for our newlywed apartment...Never got to have the fun of driving it...
Move ahead 10 years ,I found a 25 TT Dumptruck...Ran perfect,,It had Greenish body,,black and rust fenders and moved down the road good with a Jumbo O/D trans...took the kids trick or treating,,hay rides ...Church kids caroling....Overnight camping...Fun ,fun,fun....
So I can see both thoughts on this ...I can appreciate somebody’s hard work and wanting every nut n bolt exact...!!
I know that a Model T is a lot more fun when it runs good and you don’t hafta worry about a little kid jumping on the running board with mud on their feet....It’s like fishing ,or catching ...Some people hafta look perfect out on the water ,,and some people can use a bamboo pole with a bent pin on it...
I often wonder how many people get turned off on the hobby of old cars because of the thing people say on this or other forums ...
Bottom line ,,,”Hey,,it’s your car ,if’n You want it purple with yellow wheels ,so be it ..This is America”...I like em black....!
It’s a lot easier to keep it all Model T though...
One time on a tour ,,I sat at a table having a beer n sandwich listening to a “know it all guy “downgrading some of the T’s on the tour...”This wasn’t right,,That wasn’t right”...When he got to mine ,,,I stood up and walked away,,,Jerk!! He didn’t bring his car out of the garage...There was a Dirt Road ...
Let’s have fun and help everybody get their T out on the road...
As some of you know, I post quite regularly on this forum, and I have restored cars myself, and also helped others repair their cars.
I believe that each person who owns one or more Model T's can do whatever he or she wants with their car. Some think modifications are great for performance and service. Others just like them because they make the car different, or look different.
Here are a few things which I believe, and don't wish to impose them on others, but offer as my observations:
1. If everyone modifies their T, eventually there won't be any stock Model T's left and no one will experience the thrill of driving a T as it was done years ago.
2. I have learned from personal experience that a "show car" and a "driver" are not the same. Even a completely stock driver car will not win the top prizes at show cars. The reasons are that the car must be perfect or at least the most nearly perfect car to win the prize. Show cars only prove that the owner wishes to spend the most money on professional work and detail. Most do it yourself cars run very well but won't win prizes.
3. As for me, I prefer the satisfaction of doing as much of my own work as possible, leaving some of the more completed work to professionals such as machine work or stitching the upholstery. Some of our members do know how to do machine work and have the tools to do it and so they even do that part of the job.
4. I also enjoy driving the car and if I get a dent or scratch, I fix it and drive on.
5. Here is another important thing to observe. On our tours, many of the break downs are due to non stock parts such as distributors, alternators etc. When you alter those parts, you must know where to get spare parts and how to fix them, because they can be many different makes of parts. Original type coils and generators work very well and with 6 volt battery the starters last much longer.
6. Another type of modification which quite often causes trouble is increasing the power of the engine or the speed of the car. Either will put stress on the other stock parts of the car and can lead to things such as broken crankshaft, or differential. Or wheel or brake failure or rolling the car from going faster than it was intended to go.
I have no problem with such things as Rocky Mtn. brakes Ruckstell, Warford etc. these are improvements. Even disk brakes are an improvement, although I, personally, don't like the looks of them.
Speedsters, if done period correct, are a fun project and car to drive. But there too, be sure to make it as safe as possible and don't take un necessary chances.
I am right now working on a speedster for a club member.
Anyway, it's your car. Do what you wish with it.
I can appreciate a well done modified, no matter what the make. What bothers me is a car registered, licensed, and advertised as a '21 Model T that has maybe 10% of actual Model T parts in it. Just doesn't seem right to call it a Model T.
I have seen more snarky comments about "purists" on this forum than tirades against altering originality.
Surely there's a balance ? Maybe I'm wrong, but I think most "speedsters" are put together from this 'n' that, things that could seldom become a complete "authentic" car, and the enjoyment folks get from that, and stray parts put back in use is a plus both for preservation, and for the hobby in general.
Alterations were a fact of life with Model Ts from the very first. The evolution of the beastie makes for a long list of developments Ford made to improve the breed - very often, older cars were fitted with updated, improved parts during their using life, which makes a quest to make any Model T "factory original" interesting at best, and frustrating at worst.
I don't think "pure factory originality" has to be limited to museum pieces or show cars that compete for trophies. I like my own "time machine" to be as near to what she was when she rolled out of the factory even though she's a "using horse", because to me, that's the essence of the Model T experience. Regardless how "pure" you might want your T to be, there will be a lot of trade-offs for reasons of practicality and the non-availability of many parts and processes.
For those who like to make what I consider major alterations, such as alternators, modern distributor ignition, modern carburetion, advance cams, counter-balanced crank-shafts, high compression heads, etc., etc., part of the fun for all of us is to make any Model T, whether bone stock or "altered" run better.
Follow your dream ! Have fun ! For myself, I question whether major alterations don't make a Model T into something it can never be. The impulse is understandable given how we all want to be able to drive our Ts (a lot !) even though our modern environment of paved roads, interstates, heavy traffic and high speeds is a world much changed from the wagon ruts and mud the Model T was born to travel.
First - I Love the Classic Model T's!
Yet - There will be those 'offended' by my comments... "So sorry, T.S.!"
'Remembering our roots' is the part of the hobby not to be forgotten and which we do enjoy. However, there is an observed nose problem some develop insisting their opinion be infringed upon others, and, well..... (i.e. If you don't happen own a 'brass', their 'snob appeal' isn't there for you.) It DOESN'T MATTER that the vehicle DOESN'T BELONG TO THEM! Please note: My vehicle IS still mine!!! And I am still a 'gearhead' at heart, trying to respect those 'Preservationists & Purists' for who they may be. "Good for them!" If they're unable to respect another individual, I'm asking truthfully "Who is really the one with the 'nose problem'???"
I, for one, plan to accumulate my memories and accomplishments my way, with an open mind, and to be learning as long as I can! Don't we all want to enjoy our T's in our own way?
Take Care; Behave; "Don't Shoot!" (and)
I'm new to the hobby and have my 1923 "T" in the shop getting engine work. At first I thought of the old saying, "I would rather have a sister in a whorehouse than a brother driving a modified Model T. But I want to drive it and make it as reliable as possible so I guess I'm on the fence. I want to be able to stop and at my age of 76 I'm needing all the safety I can get. But I do want the car to look as stock as possible. I am getting disc brakes. I have a new body shop in town and the young man who runs it does fine restoration work. I was thinking about getting a shinny new paint job later on but my wife likes the tired old black that is on the car. It looks its age.
As the late Ralph Ricks would often say, "The modifications on MY car make it safer, more reliable and improve it’s appearance. The modifications on YOUR car are unnecessary, troublesome, gaudy and ruin the whole character of the Model T!"
Forgive me,but all this asking why business has me ready to type.
From what I noticed early on in the hobby of Model T's,Ham radio, stamp collecting,coin collecting,is there are snobs in all of them.If you aint got the rarest,most expensive,newest thing related to that particular hobby,you don't belong. I know some remember me saying here before the reason i don't have a Ham license is because of snobys telling me I didn't want to use tube equipment, I wanted this 2 meter handheld thingy.1 of my interest is vacuum tube equipment and I was looking forward to talking to someone across the ocean via the ol "footwarmers".
I think some folks,like the 1's that have the "do your Homework" attitude,really need to join a local group and learn some of what the hobby is SUPPOSED to consist of. You aint gonna live forever,your T is going to outlive you. Don't you want it preserved,enjoyed for generations to come? If you are the 1's turning your nose's up at the newcomers, don't bi--h when they decide to "hotrod it". Your attitude may have been what killed their new interest in the old car hobby.Just as those jackass's turned me off amateur radio.
I think our beloved model T's can and should be loved in many ways.
Personally I prefer them in stock form as Henry built them but that's just me. I have seen many fully restored T's which have been painfully restored down to NOS cotter pins..They are very nice but out of my league, and would not meet my needs as fun drivers.
I see our friend Rich Eagle's preserved farmyard car (in process) and am just crazy about what he has done. I see his artistic eye for preserving the cracks and rivets, achieving the perfect "patina" and fully appreciate his hard work, but would not have the energy to do what he has done.
Many install distributors and other "reliability" conversions, but I personally don't see the need... not that it's wrong, just not my choice.
I love "speedsters" for the vision that was seen for T potential in the day, and maybe some day I'll build one of my own.
To me that's just a tiny bit of what T's are, So it seems that I love T's as the were, what they are, and what they will become. That to me is what this hobby is all about. But I could be wrong.
I'm grateful that SOMEBODY is determined to find out and share exactly the configuration that these cars were in when they left the factory, so that the rest of us can make informed decisions about what to keep stock and what to modify, either out of choice, or budget, or necessity.
To answer the original question: That's just human nature.
- Neighborhood associations
- Religious beliefs
Why would T's be any different or immune?
Live & let live. Have fun!
There are pretentious people on both ends of the spectrum. There is no white cowboy hat for one side and black cowboy hat for the other. Where the o.p. says, "I just read a post where one person really berated another for NOT being 100% true to originality. On the other hand, I don't remember anyone jumping on someone for being original."....
You are relatively new to the forum, but there used to be a troll agitator here that would butt into almost every purist thread and belittle them for being "anal" and "trophy hogs" and "snobs" and attach all kinds of negative attributes to them for no good reason at all except to puff himself up. In reality he was projecting his own negative behavior onto people that didn't exhibit the same. The purists I know and spend my time with are anything but, and when it comes to those that are, I don't waste my time. Most of them here are very decent people.
There is plenty of Model T goodness to go around. If someone is a scoundrel, than they're a scoundrel separate of their preferences and probably tend to be with most things in life.
Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Maybe the truth is really out there. Somewhere?
The only problem I see here is that it's being called a problem.(or creating one ?). Differences of opinion aren't a problem but merely conversation. Many cars, many body styles, many opinions. Normal. Sure I come here for entertainment as much as learning and possibly offering aid and when I see something I disagree with I speak out and I expect others to do the same. Google "forum" and see if the definition has any thing to do with oatmeal or flat beige paint.
I'm just happy that I own a Model T, which I've wanted since I was a teenager. Also thankful to club members who without their knowledge I would not have gotten my T to start yesterday for the first time. All because of 3 turns of a bolt! My 1925 Roadster is in the Jalopy category and I'm proud of it,wouldn't change a thing. This is what my Model T became after 92 years. It was what I could afford and I love it. As far as the purists that frown about a fire extinguisher? Wish nothing bad to anyone, however, nice to have in case of fire. Doubt they would let their T burn to the ground.
John Kuehn, the truth IS out there:
I plan on making a little sign with everything that is not "correct" for my 26 RPU when finished. Better than letting the nit pickers have their chance to show how "smart" they are.
Ed, That's So True, Thanks for the RDR Quote...RIP
It is amazing how things can go off course. Two references have now been made to fire extinguishers being a frowned upon by purists.
Please provide a link to the thread showing purists expressing an "outburst of disdain" over fire extinguishers.
I just want to add my experience with this. I’m choosing to stay anonymous about this because of how I have seen people react on here on this topic. I bought a 1925 model t that at some time in its life the engine was replaced with a 1929 model a motor. I had been looking for a t for the “right price” and this one fit the bill. Shortly after I was going to ask a question on here and I searched it first and found several conversations about t’s with other engine and was very turned off by how people acted about a simple question. So after reading that I decided I would never tell mention on here what was under my hood. And because of this I was even afraid to talk to people at car shows or in parking lots about it in fear of them being this way. After a few people I talked to being more interested in how it’s set up rather than it not being correct I got to thinking this is a typical people acting tougher behind a computer than they ever would be in person. I’m glad I didn’t just sell it and not continue in the hobby. I’m now building another t (this time with a t engine) I know kinda find it fun to open the hood and let people stare at it confused trying to figure it out. Many know right away some look at it and know something is not right. All in all I like my car the way it is and it still puts a smile on my face driving it and all the people I pass.
a search of the forums yields 188 hits for "fire extinguisher". No one had anything bad to say about them or their connection to the hobby as far as I could tell.
A review of the Kidde recall thread shows no negative opinions of them, but simply "thanks" for the info.
Some folks thrive on chaos or conflict, and where none exists, it is invented.
I drive a Model T because I like to. I don't care what someone else does.It is a hobby for,me. I am happy to be able to drive .I will be be putting disc brakes on my Fordor sedan for safety. We like to haul our grandkids so don't care if is original as long as it is safe. Everybody to his own makes me happy.
The quote came straight from the end of the movie Metropolis, which is about management / worker relations. I've been holding unto this photo for a long time because it never fit a cartoon genre but is more serious in tone. I appreciate being scolded, maybe not raked over the coals but I covet the information that some of you have stored for decades, as we restore our T, which should have gone to the scrappers years ago. Not everyone has that thick of skin. I also appreciate the modders, perhaps not if a beautiful T is getting destroyed, but our '50 F1 is all about the mod. We should co-exist in respect just like two completely different vehicles parked next to each other in a museum.
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. (Proverbs 27:17) Let's just not take it to the point that we dull the blades.
Ah the wisdom of RDR aptly explains why. Thank you, RIP
Walter & Scott,
The statement was about Basic Safety Items.
I was wrong to state fire extinguishers specifically. I used fire extinguishers as an example of an important part of Basic Safety Items when there weren't any specific comments on this single item.
My mistake and I apologize for making it.
Okay, fair enough. All it is, is if they're a dope, they're a dope purist or not. Dopes come in all colors!
Walter, Scott, and Terry, Hey thanks for clearing up the Extinguisher thing. Now that got me all riled up and sending off PM to above quotes. Sorry
I did post negative comments about the S+it+y Kiddes because they Are Dangerous. It's certainly not because their shouldn't be an extinguisher in every Model T and inspected once in awhile.
Seems like many guys here trying to save a couple of bucks will buy the cheapest extinguisher they can find then expect it to perform like a miracle when a real emergency happens. Suppose that same person would buy his Life Safety tools at Harbor Freight?
BTW... I like my Torpedo to look close to how it came from the factory so I can teach people looking at it about the Model T and how cars were in the early days. Like Original Larry, I built the mechanicals of my car for touring and to be happy running on the freeway all day long. To each his own just my preference, Speedsters are a different breed.
One might wonder if the problem is not more your guilty conscience than anything else? Maybe you made an impulse buy and now have buyer's remorse?
Ask Model A questions about the parts that are Model A and ask Model T questions about the parts that are Model T. Don't expect anyone who knows the difference to act like they don't notice when they do see what's under the hood.
This has been quite entertaining for me, thank you!
"As the late Ralph Ricks would often say, "The modifications on MY car make it safer, more reliable and improve it’s appearance. The modifications on YOUR car are unnecessary, troublesome, gaudy and ruin the whole character of the Model T!"
“Epistle” to the Michiganites according to Bob:
A show-car is a show-car and a driver is a driver. -The two get treated differently and never the 'twain shall meet. -Any Model T built between 1908 and 1912 is a show-car. -Period. -You don't drill holes in such cars because they're just too darned rare and precious for that kind of treatment.
You can drill on Flivvers built between 1913 and 1914, but only to install period-correct accessories such as hand-Klaxons; for vintage doo-dads of that type are part of the warp & woof of the Model T's history.
And now, a little blasphemy:
Tin-Lizzies built from 1915 on up are fair game for the Black & Decker treatment because they're numerous enough to ensure that there will always exist a large enough number of correct originals to serve as historical reference. -Them’s the rules. Who says so? -Well, nobody—I just made ‘em up.
A little more heresy:
I've learned from experience that being shy with the drill and, instead, using half-way, temporary-mount measures involving Velcro and duct-tape make for unsatisfactory, amateurish-looking installations. -In my humble opinion, fastening a running-board toolbox with clamps would look very wrong. -Once you’ve got one of those handy-dandy boxes installed and have used it a while, you’ll realize what an indispensable item it is and you’ll never go back to a bare running-board, so you might as well mount it permanently. -The important thing to remember when you drill is to place the holes close enough together to accept the smallest available toolbox. -Once you’ve done that, you can get as many different size boxes as you like and mount them according to your need without having to drill more holes through the car (Not being a complete barbarian, I did put a gasket, cut from a rubber welcome mat, between the toolbox and the running-board).
By the way, my personal preference is for the small “battery box” because when located in the center of a touring car running-board, it will still leave plenty of room for size-13 boots on either side. -In spite of its smallish size, a battery box will hold anything you need to keep handy, with room to spare.
For the purists with pre-1913 cars, I would suggest an accordion luggage rack (the mounting clamps of which you can pad by gluing on strips of rubber—and you can pop milk-jug stoppers onto the swivel-discs, thus saving your paint job from scratches).
The accordion luggage rack will hold just about any size wicker basket, which can be purchased inexpensively (between $35 and $40) at most arts & crafts stores). -Besides its big capacity, the neat thing about a wicker basket is that you can’t tell its age, so it looks perfectly at home on anything from the running-board of a Stanley Steamer to the roof-rack of a Toyota SUV.
Then again, I could be wrong—happens all the time—just ask my wife.
I found this suitcase that I think looks pretty good
While it may appear that there are two warring camps, a few purists versus those who make alterations, in fact it's a continuum. While some aspire to purity and strive to achieve it, I don't know of anybody whose car is 100% factory correct. Everybody compromises on originality, some just a little and some a lot.
When it comes to running board accessories I disagree with our best writer on one point. The luggage rack has clamps, so I don't see clamps for the other accessories as glaringly out of place. Not only do they eliminate drilling extra holes, but they also allow your can rack or tool box to move easily from one car to another.
Of course, if your cans are big the clamps don't show.
I have had exciting dreams about Big Cans .....
Here's a photo of my 1925 Roadster "jalopy". I'm not going to change a thing. As I've said before it's been around 92 years and this is the end result. Just like people we change as we get old. I also have an accordion luggage rack on the left side. My Mother was given a luggage set when she was married in 1952. She is gone now, but I still has one piece of the luggage left and will be displaying it on the T.Haven't given my T a name yet, more difficult then I thought.
I owned both rip van whinkel model T
And i own or should say biuld for better term jalopys
Both are same fun own and enjoy
My worse T was a concourse show car even though i drove it i was never as happy as i am in my jalopys.
I do have to say this divid even more so in model A club . My A is stock not factory but stock and i stopped touring with local A club as everyone else has an overdrive
Here's my 2 cents worth; First, to each his own, just enjoy what you're doing the way you choose to do it !
Then... you don't cut off a piece of a Rembrandt painting to make it fit the wall above the couch, and you don't put a Packard engine in the last flying Messerschmidt 109...
Then again there are a lot of T's still around and many of them are kept in original condition, and plenty more are built from parts, converted into speedsters, or in any other way giving their owners hours of fun and enjoyment during winter garage sessions or cruising on tours or just barreling along dirt backroads.
I'm sure any T that is being worked on is better than a T being neglegted or scrapped !
I say, Drive On
Why can't the owner of a Rembrandt cut it off to make it fit? Why can't the owner of the last flying ME-109 put a Packard engine in it? It's his right? Is rarity the unit of measure? Where do you draw THAT line? Everyone says there's lot's of Model T's left, so it's no great loss to do whatever you want with them. What is the magic number that we must get down to before it's suddenly NOT ok to do with it what you will? Is it OK to hasten the achievement of said number?
There is a lot of talk about a show car, a driver, an as kept original, etc.
However, I feel that the nail so to speak has been missed. Where the controversy comes in is about a CLUB car. This is a reason why there are so many T owners not in a club, and let me explain. If you are a member of a club then you generally must adhere to their notions of what your car "should be." An excellent example is the HCCA, everything should be pre '16. A good example is an average MTFCA chapter where it should be a Model T. If you want to participate you need to share their same views. Now an average car showdrive in most anything would be welcome and you may see an 80's corvette sitting next to a model T. By simply being a member of a club that excludes anything you are raising yourself to a type of purist, and this is ok.
I will build what I want and drive what I build, if a club will have me and I want to be a part of the club, great. A perfect example is th '12 tourabout I will be building. Is there a body panel on it that will be factory, no. Will it be more like a speedster, yes. Will it all be model T era, definatly. In fact aside from a few T accessories it will be all prewar. Would I be welcome on a T or HCCA tour, unlikely. Could I run it on an endurance run, nope. So why build it one might now ask, I'll let you think on that.
BTW, the above was not aimed at Leo, or anyone in particular. Just thoughts for all to ponder.
It's good to take assumptions and look back at the core and realize they are assumptions.
Thank You! It's perfectly clear now.
The only variable is the majority, or the loudest minority, dictating what the "CLUB" car is, or is not.
For me; I appreciate all the Ts, the work owners dedicate to them, and the love owners have for them.
To Each, His Own.
Years past I made a rider lawn mower look like a C-cab for the kids who loved to ride in my 22 stock touring creating interest in the hobby.
I was shocked to find it was put down after posting a picture all though there was not a T part in the mower.
Personally happy original cars are not modified, but also happy others are for safety reasons or comfort there are to few vintage Ts left and my last one will not be original. It was modified by a black smith some time after 1916. As found its not safe to drive----it will be and it will look original with cracked fenders and improper parts done before I was born.
Thats one thing that makes this forum so great. Whether you are striving for a 100 point restoration or a 100 hp speedster most all are welcome here as this "club" involves Model T based cars. We are purisists as we are unwelcoming if some shows up here with a t-bucket or hotrod.
What i found odd was how they'll diss' peoples cars on ebay & claim it's not even good as a parts car just because the steering box has the wrong knurling or something. Then there was that guy who wanted to build a kids playground on the chassis he dug up in his back yard and you sad old men told him that axle wasn't safe and he should throw it all away & buy a good car. What?
Yet you can post the most hideous home made body on here and people will lap it up.
I should post my cars on here & let ya'll cry over my incorrect floorboards and fan belt made from a bicycle tube. Oh, and then there is my coils I set by hand. And home made timer flapper from a pen spring, an offcut of pipe and a nail.
And if you think this forum was bad for it try the model A side of fordbarn, those guys think putting turn signals on a car makes it a hotrod and the wheels will fall off if you use multigrade oil.
I have the opinion that the pure stock show car and the driver car do not have to be mutually exclusive. As many of you know I own a car that is a multi-time national show winner (AACA Senior Grand National and Stynoski winner) that I also drive regularly, probably 10,000 miles since I finished the car. To me, the ability to have car restored as it would have looked when it came off the assembly line that also drives as it would have come off the assembly line is part of the challenge and fun of the hobby. Conversely, my '13 Touring has multiple aftermarket and home made accessories that are decidedly not Ford issued. In the case of that car I really enjoy it as it was made by Ford, and modified by subsequent owners over the last 105 years. Someone really summed it up earlier. These cars are MINE to do as I wish. If someone else does not like the stewardship I offer my cars, they can get out their checkbooks, write a big fat number on them made out to me, then do with the cars as they wish.
Hal and others, let me clarify what i ment with the Rembrandt and the Messerschmidt;
There is a thin line between collectibles and things that are an irreplacable part of our history, that thin line is where you are no longer the owner but rather the custodian of a historic artifact.
There will allways be debate over where that line exactly lies and thats a good thing, for example the original Ford racers from the early years; should they all be preserved in a museum behind a velvet rope, or should they be driven occasionaly for everyone to see hear and smell... should the owner of one of these be 'allowed' to replace the engine to drive it more regularly ?
That's what i was trying to say with my analogy with the Rembrandt painting.
Thats 4cents allready.. ;-)
And another 2ct: The Tank museum in Bovington UK has the biggest collection of original WW1 tanks in the world, one of their early models, i think it is a Mk2, is in running condition but a big crack is slowly developing in the bottom plate of the hull.
The problem was this: should they replace the bottom plate to keep it drivable and could show it on the annual Tankfest, it would no longer be completely original as built in WW1. The solution to their conundrum apeared in the form of a movie prop they were able to buy, a on the outside correct replica of the same model tank but with the innards of a modern excavator ! They did not have to change anything to the absolutely correct original and could still show a WW1 tank to the public at the weekend trundling around the arena, people are treated to running tanks every weekend instead of once a year now so everyone's a winner.
I wouldn't pay to see a movie prop. It's kinda like buying you fiancé a zircon.
Years ago, I took my wife a couple of states away to ride a steam train. We enjoyed it and always thought we might go back. We did go back 2-3 years ago, but they no longer offered steam. We rode the diesel but asked about what happened to the steam engine. Well, it had gotten into bad repair and needed an overhaul. Understandable. However, their grand plan was to have it converted to diesel, but still look like a steam engine. The guy gave us some spiel about how dangerous steam was and yada yada yada. My wife and I both operate steam and know there are several steam railroads in operation. This guy would have had us believe it was impossible to operate a steam engine in this day and time. Anyway, it's THEIR steam engine. They can do as they wish with it. We won't be going back.
My hats off to the people who restore all these gems. Leo, my wife and I visited that tank museum many years ago and I had the honor of watching one of those WW I tanks being driven around. I'm also a steam train fan and hate it when they replace the historic runs with diesel. Lets keep history alive any way we can. I believe in modern modifications in order to keep a car on the road.
This 'WHY' thread started out on the assumption that Model T people are divided in how they build or restore their cars.
Maybe we should start a thread asking WHY people like onions on their hamburgers and some don't.
Just another dumb and pointless topic that will have as may answers as there are people. Its a wasted space on this forum.
I agree with John --all these discussions are a waste of time--what useful information can be gleamed from chitchat click and clack ---- so to continue the discussion let me re-post this from another entry --
Well there was the discussion about the "Barn Find." It appears that this discussion can be the beginning of a discussion about the "Garage Queens." "Garage queens are the standard by which all others are judged. We as a community truly do need these perfect examples against which we can base our restorations and repairs. Without these pristine specimens, we would be slaves to ancient manuals and rotting books."
I remember an auto-legend of a car at Pebble Beach that was brought over from England. The following year it was in the show being restored. It won a prize. The following year it was restored again entered in the show and surprise it won a prize. There was an article about the restoration of this car...it was so carefully restored that the historic fabric of the car's originality was not destroyed during the restoration. Amazing an authentic vehicle.
I sure understand your point.
There are many threads I read and follow, while there are many other threads having little or no interest for me.
I follow the interesting ones and avoid the uninteresting ones. I'm sure uninteresting threads, to me, are of great interest to some forum members, and therefore of value to the forum, in general.
Interest might be judged by the number of posts in the thread.
Have a Nice Day,
John- do you realize that your comment "Just another dumb and pointless topic that will have as may answers as there are people. Its a wasted space on this forum" is a slap in the face to everyone who has taken interest and contributed to this thread?
George- "all these discussions are a waste of time"- perhaps to you. What do you think of the fine folks on this forum who have taken interest in this thread and have made contributions?
I want to thank the posters to this thread who have made positive contributions, I welcome your answers and the space you have taken on this forum and please feel free to contribute despite what others may say.
Words of the day: "Reductio ad absurdum"
Too much of that coming from either side of this argument.
They have a phrase for the kind of care and presrvation you are referring to. A White Elephant . . .
Tim - I can address you as Tim? The beginning of my comment was sarcasm. I do not agree that theses or any discussions on the forum are a waste of time...by the way did you read the rest of my posting about garage queens?
Gee I do miss Click and Clack....
Chadwick, i say to each his own, we live in a free world and you should do with your car whatever you please !
But sometimes we need to discuss this topic, just to make sure where the fine line is drawn.
Is it o.k. to turn the 15millionth T into a ratrod? or should it be preserved for future generations.....
Personaly i'm not into elephants of any color, whales on the other hand.. specially the blue ones are a whole different ball game ;-)
It never ceases to amaze me when people complain about a thread. You don't like it? don't read it! What's so hard about that? It's pretty damned simple.
Seems to me to dislike a thread...you have to read some or all of it to know.
Because the animals were considered sacred and laws protected them from labor, receiving a gift of a white elephant from a monarch was simultaneously a blessing and a curse. It was a blessing because the animal was sacred and a sign of the monarch's favour, and a curse because the recipient now had an expensive-to-maintain animal he could not give away and could not put to much practical use.
In other words if you have something very rare you are unable to sell it, use it, or change it but must spend a great dal of time/money maintaining.
I don't really agree with Chadwick's general assumption about club cars.
Yes the HCCA is for brass era cars, their are many low rider or hotrod clubs and others where a Model T is not favored.
Now here in SoCal we have several Model T Ford clubs, I don't think it's possible to even join all of them. I'm not complaining cause I know some guys would love to have One. but any of the clubs that I'm familiar with welcomes any and all cars. We like T's of all sorts weather rusty or polished perfect. The OC club's President has several Chebby's in the Long Beach club our members have a Dodge touring and another an REO Speedwagon and lots of in-betweens.
I don't take my car to HotRod or a Woodie show and bet they would really not have or allow me to join their club.
My daughter was very mad at me when I bought the T a few months back. She wanted me to pursue the make I would love to add to our collection. Hupmobile. Some day.....
Not to disagree but whether or not a member of a T car club has a T or a different vehicle their mindset is usually for a traditional T and not a T bucket, hotrod, etc. A perfect example is myself, I have a '59 T-bird and a pile of parts. I would be welcome in most any T club because I have the desire for a T. If one has no desire of owning a T then why be in a T club? As Terry pointed out it is the club that decides. A great example is an endurance run where there are rules laid down that dictate what may run. A speedster may be welcome at one event and not another depending on the club hosting. Or a speedster that has run may no longer be welcome as the governing body of the club refines what they want to see.