Noise from Magneto Magnets?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Noise from Magneto Magnets?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Calabrese on Sunday, November 12, 2017 - 09:50 pm:

Hi Folks,
Looking for some expert advise with an issue I'm having. Took my
T out for a ride today and heard what sounded like a nut or bolt rattling around in transmission case area, stopped and looked around, nothing out of place and never affected the running. The noise came and went a few times then I realized it would no longer run on magneto just battery.
Did a magnet let loose? Any thoughts or help with a direction to start would be great.
Thank you all in advance!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, November 12, 2017 - 10:09 pm:

My guess is that a magnet didn't let loose ó yet. More likely a screw or a keeper. When the magnet finally goes it may bash a hole in the hogshead. A piece missing off the flywheel shouldn't make the magneto quit, but if that piece damaged the coil ring, that could do it. I think you'll need the hogshead off to see anything.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, November 12, 2017 - 10:14 pm:

Sounds like a broken magnet or magnet screw. Look thru the inspection cover and see what you find. If all looks ok then pull the hogshead and take a serious look.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marshall V. Daut on Sunday, November 12, 2017 - 11:17 pm:

If someone in the past had dropped a transmission band washer down into the crankcase while changing bands - but didn't retrieve it - possibly it lay dormant at the bottom of the sump until today. For some reason, the magneto picked it up in the oil and it was rattling around as you heard. Maybe it tore the windings on the coil ring in one spot, which would kill your magneto action. Try Ted's suggestion and see if you can spot anything obvious through the hogshead inspection window. I don't think you'll be able to see the coil windings through the opening without pulling off the hogshead. I don't recall if that's possible. You might also pull off the mag's terminal post to see if anything is amiss there. Possibly the washer broke the spring connector away from contacting the coil ring.
Marshall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Monday, November 13, 2017 - 01:28 am:

I do not want to be the bearer of bad news, but bad things can happen if something is loose inside the trans. Even a loose nut or washer can wedge between the rotating magnets and field coils and cause a chain reaction of shredding metal parts :-( :-(. So please open up the hogs head and do a good inspection. The following photos are what could happen....

2

3

4

5

6

The above destruction also destroyed the firewall, coils and coil box, floor boards, and one of the triple gears went thru the door. It also dumped five quarts of hot dirty oil on every square inch of the trucks interior.

So please check it out good. We would hate to see the engine and car destroyed, but we really do not want you to get hurt....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Monday, November 13, 2017 - 02:15 am:

Dave,
I did not destroy the engine that way but I found this after some noise in the transmission and the magneto failure.

Andre
Belgium







Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Monday, November 13, 2017 - 10:24 am:

The above photos are the "worst case" but just want to show what "can happen" Its all the "luck of the draw" or "the grace of God" when things come loose. have fun and be safe ......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, November 13, 2017 - 11:31 am:

I had something similar happen, however it was a bolt which had come out of the drive plate to brake drum. I had a screen at the top of the inspection cover and when I removed the plate, there was the bolt laying on top. In my case it took out some teeth from the flywheel ring gear.

Another T I had lost the funnel off the inside oil pipe. I didn't hear anything but the mag quit working. I switched to battery and drove on battery with only the inside line without funnel and the mag post oiler. I didn't know what was wrong until about 10 years later when I decided to replace the mag coils and there was the funnel laying in the bottom of the crankcase!

Anyway, it's best to find out what happened before you continue driving. I was just lucky.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Calabrese on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 08:57 pm:

Thanks for all the great input, itís safe at home in the garage and I have no plans to drive it until I figure this out.
This is my first T as Iím a 60ís era car collector but always had a love for Model Tís.
I feel like Iím going to find something similar to Andreís picture based on the noise and the fact that it still runs fine on battery...hope itís not too bad.
Can anyone tell me how involved it is to remove the hogshead? Is this the best place to start where as Iíll be able to see everything? Can I remove it in the vehicle? I would prefer not to pull the motor if I can avoid it.
Thanks again for all the great advice, Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 09:25 pm:

Dave

I am not in any way suggesting you do anything other than investigate what is going on, but in fairness, the photos of the bombed transmission were taken (as I recall) of a car that was flat-towed at a high rate of speed. Even the flywheel was broken. It would be HIGHLY unlikely that you could ever come to that level of destruction simply driving the car. Now to balance things out, it absolutely has happened where magnets let loose and transmissions have come apart including broken covers. That is a very rare occurrence, and the worst results come as expected, with high RPM failures. At 30 MPH, what Andre posted is the most common and normal extensiveness of damage. In any event, your choice to park the car was the only responsible choice. It won't get better on its own, that's for sure.

From your description of the noise, you very likely have a similar if not identical failure as shown by Andre.

Get the "Bible" of the hobby...T-1 at any dealer, and that will do a good job of describing the removal of the hog's head (and anything else you may ever need to do).

Removing the bendix, then the starter, the two top bolts to the driveshaft coupling, and finally all of the bolts to the hog's head, it will come out. Unfortunately, you will likely find what you expect, and that will require removal of the engine, then the engine pan, then the transmission, to effect all repairs. It's not a small job, but other than time consuming, is not beyond the abilities of a generally handy person to fix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 09:52 pm:

With the top down on your RP, if you can get a hoist over the hogshead that will make lifting it out a simple affair. As Scott says, what you find will probably require pulling the engine to remove the oil pan and dig into the transmission and magneto. I agree that the job will take time, but it ain't rocket surgery. Consult the books and the forum and you'll be fine. Clean all the pieces as you go and bag them with notes about where they go, because you will forget.}


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Calabrese on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 10:13 pm:

Great winter project, oh what fun...
Iíll post some pictures when itís apart and Iím sure Iíll have more questions. Thanks again


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Calabrese on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 10:21 pm:

Great winter project, oh what fun...
Iíll post some pictures when itís apart and Iím sure Iíll have more questions. Just a thought, if my issue is similar to Andreís is it possible to replace that one magnet and Iím good to go or is that wishful thinking? Thanks again


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 10:28 pm:

You will not be able to get to it until the flywheel is off the engine...that keeper faces the front of the car and is about .025" from the stationary magneto ring


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 01:33 am:

And while the flywheel is off, you might as well take all the magnets off, check them for cracks, and recharge them.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 01:58 pm:

No disrespect intended Steve Jelf but you remind me of my father. He was a master electrician by trade but it seemed as if there wasn't anything he couldn't do or figure out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 03:13 pm:

Donnie you sure sent shivers up my spine with your pics and description. I always pray it never happens to me (or anyone) while out driving.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 07:42 pm:

Tim

those photos were taken from a post discussing how not to tow a T... http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/708324/734277.html. This was the result of a high-speed flat tow...4 wheels on the ground and flying along behind the tow vehicle. Additionally, what was not mentioned above is that this was a TT with a worm drive; the last vehicle on the planet that you would want to flat-tow. If you decide to flat-tow a T, you might have the same result, who knows?. However, it is HIGHLY unlikely that this kind or level of damage will EVER occur in a car that is driven within the speed limit of it's design. They are impressive pictures for sure, and have had good dramatic effect on you, but rest assured, the loss of a magnet keeper at 30 miles per hour will not result in that level of carnage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 08:53 pm:

Took my 24 out to breakfast one morning. Great ride into town and parked in front of the Family Restaurant. Enjoyed the breakfast and fun with the guys but had to get home. Hit the starter and heard a loud clunk. Starter would not turn. Inspected what I could and thought the starter had locked. Did the old "push the car" routine. Couldn't. I thought then I had broken the crankshaft. Dragged it onto one of our trailers and opened things up when I got to the shop. Long story short, a magnet had broken and lodged between the pan and the flywheel. No damage to them--I consider myself lucky to only have to get a rebuilt mag!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 10:46 pm:

The coils, coilbox and triple gears look re-usable. But why is there an exhaust manifold gasket in pile of broken parts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Thursday, November 16, 2017 - 12:51 am:

The second picture from the start shows the rest of the exhaust manifold still attached to the Block. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Thursday, November 16, 2017 - 01:52 am:

Exactly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Thursday, November 16, 2017 - 06:22 am:

Just a WAG here, but the intake manifold is gone and the clamps have all been turned to hold the exhaust manifold in place. I'm thinking that maybe the intake and exhaust manifolds were removed and the exhaust was put back on the block to show the damage? JMHO Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, November 16, 2017 - 09:24 am:

The pictures were meant to show what could happen. I said it was a "worst case" that could happen. The pictures were taken after the engine was removed. The manifold is just sitting in position, but the intake and exhaust manifolds were knocked loose from the clamps and were just sitting in position after the explosion. The coil box itself could have been saved but the tops of the coils were all beat up from probably hitting the dash. This happened back in the 1980s so my memory is lacking on some of the details, but I do remember it also broke the front off the starter. This was caused by a towing accident, but I know of two more similar explosions from just driving the car. Both of them exploded when shifting from high to low while pulling a hill. The damage was not as extensive, but both hogs heads were broken and the magnets and magneto coil were shredded, similar to the magnets and coil above. 99 percent of the time a magnet plate or dropped washer will sling to the outside of the pan and settle to the bottom and be OK. But not always.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Thursday, November 16, 2017 - 09:55 am:

Scott & Donnie..thanks for the reassurance.


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