A fourth alternative band lining

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: A fourth alternative band lining
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 06:02 am:

I just saw pictures from a Model T:er in Sweden, doing maintenance on his transmission. 18 years ago he relined the bands with lining for modern automatic transmissions, modified with angled cuts by the hacksaw, 1/8" deep.

Since the car has been used for vacations way up in northern Sweden he estimated it's been driven about 30,000 to 50,000 miles in those 18 years.

The lining was worn max 3/64" at the bottom of the brake band. The wear in the low band was half of that and the reverse band was worn only 0.01". He is putting the bands back in and expects them to last another 30,000 miles.

But are there no downsides, like chattering I asked?
No chattering he said, probably because of the cuts in the lining that improves flexibility in the band and helps oil getting in.

I think this alternative is mentioned in the transmission manual from the club?

lining 1

lining 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 07:30 am:

Oh thank Goodness! I was afraid I was gonna see an "E" in front.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 07:35 am:

Roger:

What material are the bands? European trans bands 18 or so years ago were from various sources.

Any pictures showing condition of the drums ?

What rating ( SF, CC, SA ) oil was used ? What viscosity oil used ?? ( straight weight, multi grade )

If transmission worked so well with very minimal pedal adjustment over these 18 years, why pull the bands ?? Not broke, don't fix ??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 07:55 am:

Now this is something I've wondered about as the stuff was made for exactly this purpose. With the possible exception of using trans fluid in a modern automatic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 09:28 am:

When I started in the T Hobby over 50 years ago a guy here in the area was using automatic transmission band material in his T Touring. He got the idea from the local brake and clutch shop here in town.
The shop had many types of lining they used for different applications. Some were used for more than the one application they were designed for.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 09:32 am:

Bob,

Roger stated, "...a Model T:er in Sweden, doing maintenance on his transmission."

He didn't "pull the bands", he pulled the trans, for other reasons. And, "He is putting the bands back in and expects them to last another 30,000 miles.", so they are not broke, and he ain't fixing them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 09:39 am:

Next question.. Is this stuff sold anywhere?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 09:49 am:

Charlie, a quick search didn't result in suppliers of the band material itself but it is apparently available. I guess some don't feel the need for another type band material


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 09:51 am:

I don't know why anyone would consider using these being that kevlar bands are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Unless you could put thousands and thousands of trouble free miles on these why bother when kevlar is the undispited champion of transmission bands?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 10:29 am:

I would sure like to know more about this material!!
Iím probably going to have to replace the brake band in my 27 roadster after close to 30 years. The wood has worked well, but I would like to consider all the options.
So any ideas on a material specifications/ description/source would be greatly appreciated


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By W. Austen on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 11:08 am:

Back in the early 70's Hydramatic Transmission Band lining
was very popular. It is hard on the drums, has a tendency to grab and never wears out - There used to be suppliers that would bond the lining to your steel band so you didn't need rivets. I have used it in my 15' with several thousands of miles on it since1971 - I can't say I recommend it but It is all I use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 11:15 am:

Yes, I remember bonded linings...Those bonded linings could really be grabby and have significant shudder when braking at low speed. They had to be really hard on transmission components when you had a set that did that. My dad had them on his car for years and I thought that was "normal".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 11:24 am:

I know of two cars that have the bonded "modern" material, they do get driven. I think the material used was what they line the brake in oil filled power transmission boxes. It's a hard packed woven material with brass wire running thru it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Grady L Puryear on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 11:28 am:

Another alternative was the one my Grand Daddy used, far as I know, never used another. He would cut the required length from his old Cowboy hats. This was the old time hats you see in movies, had a real wide brim. These old hats would be so oil soaked from his hair and body (and dirt) they would weigh a ton. Worked for him and the dirt roads of the day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 04:27 pm:

I had always thought this was common knowledge. In my part of the world people have been using bonded linings in their T's for years. Longevity is extremely good, although I've heard some comments about being grabby in operation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 04:41 pm:

Wow... news to me. Have never heard of it before today..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 04:57 pm:

Older post on these bonded linings

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/307054.html?1345853917


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 05:00 pm:

McMaster Carr has several lining materials. Not a lot of info on them. They don't say whether they would work wet. Some of them have brass wire woven in. Not a good idea on a T, but not all were like that. There were also a couple of different friction levels.

There was some talk about using some of them for brakes on Model A's many years ago, but the consensus at the time was don't do it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 05:02 pm:

In the sixties and seventies and even in the eighties there were bands and band materials available other than cotton or kevlar.
The chatter that some complained of was said to go away if you added auto magic transmission fluid.
As I recall, one quart would do the trick.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 09:07 pm:

The brass wire in non magnetic and never has been an issue in the two cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike-Iowa on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 09:29 pm:

I recently heard a story about a T that had the woven brass material used for bands, the type that is used in old brake linings. It apparently worked very well but was found to be the likely cause of premature wear in the babbitt bearings. The brass material became suspended in the oil and passed through the bearing spaces and wore down the Babbitt. Just a thought and possible precaution.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 07:11 am:

I would be afraid the wire might come loose and get wrapped up around something. Maybe not. It was just my first thought on it. It may be fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 06:23 pm:

The brass wires in these linings are bad news! They do cause bearing issues. Iíve re-babbitted a couple engines that had these. One engine even had a bunch of brass fibers bedded into the third main bearing and the crank was scored.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 06:31 pm:

I'd think a modern lining intended for transmissions might be workable, but friction linings for brakes . . . not so much !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Friday, November 17, 2017 - 10:07 am:

Brass wire aside, the material itself is super abrasive. If you have ever tried to drill or saw any, you know what I mean. That said, I have seen it run successfully on open transmissions and it's not hard on the drums (after all, look how long service brakes run with the stuff), but I don't think you'd want what wears off flowing through your engine.


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