5:1 steering gears don't fit, any suggestions?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: 5:1 steering gears don't fit, any suggestions?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 06:38 pm:

The old gears with 12 teeth fit fine but the new gears with 13 teeth do not fit.

The 5:1 shaft pin seems to be about a millimeter or so too close to the edge of the inside of the gear box.

I had an extra 13 tooth gear and tried slightly grinding it down but that is not the problem.

I think the 1912 brass gear box is just not the right fit for the 13 tooth gears.

Do you have any thoughts or experience with this problem? Thank you in advance.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 06:41 pm:

here is one more view


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 07:22 pm:

The gentleman who performed the same type of installation for me ran into the same problem (5:1 steering gears in a 1915 steering case). -It simply didn't work. -Because my car was to be a driver and not a correct show car, the decision was made to drill out the rivets and pull the '15 gear case off the steering column and replace it with a '26 or '27 gear case. -No other tactic would work.

With the new 5:1 gearing the car handles great, but the difference is subtle enough that it doesn't really justify the extreme difficulty of installation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 07:29 pm:

There are times when the 5:1 gearing kit won't fit a 5:1 car, either, without a fair amount of lapping of the gears to the gear case...can be a lot of work...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Houston---WNC on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 07:42 pm:

Robert did you change the steering shaft from a 4 to 1 to a 5to1 steering shaft. the pin location is different for a 4to1 than a 5to1.(paragraph 777 Ford Service Manual) davids


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 07:52 pm:

Thank you for your feedback.

I did replace the 4 to 1 with a part# T-3516 5 to 1 steering shaft. The larger gears simply don't fit the gear case. I assumed it would because the advertisement said it would. I called tech support and he was very nice but said I just need to do what eve I need to do to make it work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 08:18 pm:

The early steering cases and gears had a different tooth shape from the later ones. The teeth were thinner and longer. Here is a picture of the three different types of planet gears. The gear to the left is for a 5 to 1 ratio with wider teeth, The middle gear is for the later 4 to 1 with wider teeth, and the gear to the right with narrow and longer teeth is for the early steering cases. I don't know when the change took place to the wider teeth but I think the cases with the steering lock slot had the wider tooth profile.
Steering gear shapes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 08:29 pm:

That makes sense because the 5:1 gears are too a bit wide for my case even though they seem to fit when not over the pin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 08:37 pm:

99% of the time, I'm a defender of our suppliers, and their dealers, and glad for parts, even if the one supplier of the ONE part available makes a part that still needs "tweaking".

This on the other hand, is a known issue and has a specific date where the parts go from "needing tweaking" to "will not work under any circumstances". And THAT should be made clear by our supply houses that carry this stuff. Robert should only be dealing with this as a choice, and not because parts were dumped on him and he has to "do what you need to do" without realizing the dilemma from the start.

Dealers: are you listening?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 08:43 pm:

I have changed the brass gear case on the columns of my T's to the 5 to 1. The parts just won't fit right with the 4-1 main gear case.I know my columns were not restored yet and still needed paint and what not.On a restored car,taking the rivets out of the column and doing that swap may require some repaint and what not. You can polish the nickle off a 26-7 gear case and it won't stand out so bad on your early car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 09:40 pm:

I had a similar problem of new gears not fitting and being very tight when changed in a 1925 gear case. The column was off the car. It was free of grease and on the work bench. I had the new 5:1 gears in the case on a 5:1 shaft. It was nearly impossible to turn the shaft even with a steering wheel installed. I remove the gear case cover and placed a generous amount of valve laping compound on all gears. case cover and steering wheel was reinstalled and I proceeded to turn the wheel and in a very short time of turning the wheel the gears turned freely having the tight spots removed by the compound. The case and gears were cleaned, greased and now it is on my Fordor sedan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 09:56 pm:

I was able to do the same thing that Jack did using time saver but it took a lot of work and most certainly could not be done in the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevada Bob Middleton on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 10:00 pm:

Your case is 4 to 1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevada Bob Middleton on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 10:03 pm:

Even if they would fit the gear counts would cause a jam


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, AZ on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 10:21 pm:

Had the same experience as Jack on my 1926 runabout steering gear. Installed new 5:1 shaft and new 5:1 gears in the case, could barely turn the assembly with the steering wheel, applied Clover lapping compound and starting working back and forth. After working it for a while, the gears began to free up as the lapping compound removed the tight spots. As per Jack, made sure the case and gears were thoroughly cleaned before packing with grease and securing the cover. This was done with the column out of the car and on the workbench.

(Message edited by AzBob on November 14, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Clary on Tuesday, November 14, 2017 - 10:27 pm:

The 5:1 often does not work in an early gear case. The middle years usually get by with a little lapping in like Jack describes. I have never had a conversion from 4:1 to 5:1 jam up. It is a pretty common change.


Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 03:15 am:

Greetings All,

Art Wilson has it right about Ford changing the tooth profile on the gears AND the gear case and the result IS that the 5:1 gear set just won't work in the early gear case. Someone will have to look at the Record of Change card to find out when this took place. It was after the change from the two piece gear case and may have been as late as 1916 or 1917. When I worked for one of the parts suppliers I would have the sad duty of informing the owners of early cars that the 5:1 gear sets were incompatible with their early cars.

The suggestions mentioned above about using valve grinding compound or TimeSaver to work in tight gears is a proven method of coaxing tight gears to "come out and play". Good luck with your projects, Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 11:11 am:

What is the purpose of using a 5 to 1 gear set if you're not installing 21" tires - wasn't that Ford's purpose to begin with ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 11:45 am:

The change of pitch in the gears was late in 1919, but if an earlier case is very worn maybe it can be tightened up with the newer style thicker gears?

From the encyclopedia: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/S-T.htm#steer
"10-17-19 Changed the pitch of gear teeth on the above part from 14 to 14-18 with 20 degree pressure angle. This change is made to reduce friction between gears and is to take effect as soon as the change can be made without holding up production. The parts on hand to be balanced and used up. Note: Owing to the wear on these parts when in use it will be necessary to hold the present design, that is, parts having straight 14 pitch teeth for repairs."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 12:12 pm:

By what Roger quotes above, those gears are not interchangeable, not just because they're not working for you, but because they're not supposed to.

A 14 Pitch, 14-1/2 degree pressure angle internal gear, (the steering gear case), will not mesh properly with a 14-18 Pitch, 20 degree pressure angle gear. Not because you're doing anything wrong, but because those gears were never meant to interchange.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 01:01 pm:

Had an identical problem switching a late 12 4:1 to later 5:1, initially using new gears....not even close. I had purchased a scrap 26-27 column for the steering shaft, and also had the original 3 gears and center stub shaft. For reasons unknown, the original gears and stub shaft fit, but did have a couple of minor tight spots. These were relived by running the assembled wheel back and forth, until the tight spots disappeared. I assume this was the result of interference wear on the cast brass gear teeth?
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 01:18 pm:

Scott,

I think your used 5:1 gears fit because they were worn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 01:19 pm:

What's a 14-18? That sounds like a special thing of sorts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 01:21 pm:

George,

It's a modified gear form. It's basically a 14 pitch, with the "whole depth"* of an 18 pitch. Bottom line, it creates a stubbier tooth that's stronger and theoretically rolls smoother.

*Distance from the root of the tooth to the tip of the tooth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 01:56 pm:

Robert

You added: Thank you for your feedback.

I did replace the 4 to 1 with a part# T-3516 5 to 1 steering shaft.


The photo you posted shows a reproduction steering shaft and those are known to cause trouble with install. That reproduction shaft is two parts welded, top circular portion that contains the pinions can be offset and cause the distances between centers of the pinions enough to allow gear interference.

Helped one fellow with that issue, he had a machinist rework the upper disc to re-position the pinion centers.

My experience with the new reproduction gear sets is good, some lapping needed, but I have always used good Ford forged top steering shafts, no reproduction shafts.


Reproduction steering shaft


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 02:26 pm:

Thanks Jerry,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Wednesday, November 15, 2017 - 03:43 pm:

There is nothing wrong with the new parts, we run in to the same thing, every time from 1913 to 1925. Never tried a 26-27.

With the first one, in a 1914, and in all, the New gears would check fine for size, but Ford gear boxes are not all centered to the shaft hole. So what you get is a tight spot, that you can't turn the New gears through, they bind.

I have a N.O.S. 1920's Nickel plated one that also had to be fixed.

You center the gear box, and shave off 1 to 2 thousandths out, normally just on 1/2 half or less, of your gear case, and they turn smoothly, and no slop.

I had the tooling made for the mill. Cutter was made by hand, by fitting it to the N.O.S. gear case.

Steve the 5 to 1 steering takes some of the quickness out of the 4 to 1's.

Herm.


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