New MTFCA Member With First Model T

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: New MTFCA Member With First Model T
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Emering on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 10:18 am:

I have a chance to purchase a 1923 T touring from an estate here in NJ.
The only paperwork with the car is the Certificate of Title pictured.
It appears that the most recent owner, now deceased, never registered the car in NJ, keeping the Kansas plates on the vehicle.
Will I have a hassle trying to get the car registered and insured?
Looking forward to many happy years of driving adventures!
Thank you,
Gene

Certificate of Title

1923 Ford Model T Touring

1923 Ford Model T Touring

1923 Ford Model T Touring


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 10:23 am:

Gene, welcome! Every state is different (and in some cases license offices can be different). You might try starting a new thread referring to this one and titled, "Need advice on New Jersey registration." That will get the attention of the people most likely to be able to help you.

(Message edited by dick_lodge__st_louis_mo on November 18, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 10:27 am:

Your car appears to be a late 1924.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 10:41 am:

http://www.nj.gov/mvc/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 10:51 am:

Air up the tires, change oil, gas -up , rid the plates ... just need title and receipt to register.....and enjoy !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 11:00 am:

Gene: Welcome to the " affliction"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Power on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 11:05 am:

I had no problem. Had something very similar in N.J


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fords Masterpiece . nj on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 11:17 am:

Jersey Guys are coming out of the bunkers !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 11:23 am:

We're not in Kansas anymore.....lol


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Codman on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 11:48 am:

The title is the key piece. The registration doesn't matter unless the car was already registered. A state would not allow two different registrations on the same vehicle, so any existing registration would have to be cancelled before you could register the car. In your case, the fact that the car was never registered in NJ (if anything) makes things easier, not more difficult.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 01:43 pm:

The body looks very solid & straight, Looks like a great T!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vern (Vieux Carre) on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 03:24 pm:

Congrats and welcome to the forum.
Vern
black balloon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 04:13 pm:

Gene,
You are in big trouble but I am willing to help you.

I can have my son pick up the car on his way from DC to New Hampshire this week and I will register it here.
In about 5 years I will let you visit it and in 10 years you can take it back to NJ.
In the meantime I will make sure it gets washed at least once a year and is driven weekly.
As a surrogate parent I will care for it as if we’re my own and only charge you for parts it may need.

You will need to accept this offer by midnight tonight because it is only good until the twelfth of never or the cows come home - whichever is last.

Respectfully offered.
Fred In New Hampshire


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 10:22 pm:

Gene,

Welcome to the forum and to a great hobby. As you are around the car more, you will notice more details. For example as Larry Smith pointed out above the body appears to be a late 1924 (and I would add into 1925) based on the equal length door hinges that are visible. For additional details on late 1924-25 cars please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/114100.html

Also note that the Certificate of Title has a motor number listed as 4,46?,504. On page 524 of Bruce McCalley's book "Model T Ford"he has a listing of engine (motor) numbers and when they were entered on the Engine Production log. If it was 4,464,504 it was entered on Oct 11, 1920 and if it was 4,469,504 it was entered into the logs on Oct 13, 1920. Usually that was date the engine was manufactured, although sometimes the number was sent to a branch plant on that day and stamped onto an engine that was assembled at the branch plant in a day, week or even month later. And if the engine and car were both assembled at the main USA plant (Highland Park for most of the Model T Production) then it is possible the car was assembled on the day the engine was assembled. But by 1920 more and more of the car assembly was done at the branch plants. I.e. parts were shipped there from the Highland Park main plant and assembled at the branch plant.

So, "IF" your engine serial number matches the certificate of title you have an Oct 1920 engine. And you appear to have a late 1924-25 touring body. Good news -- they fit and function together just fine. And many of the T's had an engine replaced back in the day or even in modern times.

How would you know what the engine serial number reads? Just look on the left side of the engine above the water inlet as shown below:



That one is from a 1915 engine originally published in "The Vintage Ford" magazine and also shown on page 228 of Bruce McCalley's book, also in his CD (Used by permission to promote our club and hobby). In the photo above the casting date is shown in a straight line to the right of the water inlet. Below is a 1919 engine and shows how Ford USA started using a circle with the casting date in it. From memory, if you have an engine produced from 1919 to 1921-ish it will often have the casting date in a circle like that. Again from memory around 1921-ish the casting dates were discontinued for USA production although Canada continued to use casting dates on the block and transmission cover. (We have more accurate data on when they were discontinued -- if someone really wants to know -- let us know and we will try to look it up.) Thank you Phil Mino for sharing the photo!



Note, it is usually helpful for the title or if sold on a bill of sale, the bill of sale to have the serial number that is on the engine. That makes it easier to title in the few states I have purchased cars. If the car does not have a title or it doesn't match the serial number of the engine -- then I would recommend you should factor in the extra cost & hassle of obtaining a title. Some states it is easy and some states it is a lot more difficult. In general, I will not purchase a car that doesn't have a title matching the engine number (newer cars -- VIN by the windshield) unless I really want that one for some reason. With over 15,000,000 Model T's produced, it is very easy to find one that has a proper title. Again it varies by state and even DMV on how hard or easy it is to title the car.

Good luck and again welcome to the forum.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sayer on Saturday, November 18, 2017 - 11:51 pm:

Welcome Gene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Keppler, Fredon NJ on Sunday, November 19, 2017 - 08:40 am:

Gene,that title is a nice looking old document, its a shame that when you get it titled in NJ they will probably make you surrender it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Codman on Sunday, November 19, 2017 - 09:59 am:

I always make a color photocopy of the old title before I head off to the DMV.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, November 19, 2017 - 12:33 pm:

It is also convenient (depending on your state's laws) to "lose" the title and not turn it in!


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