I have a chance to purchase this 1923 Touring with 1920 engine.
A very knowledgeable member pointed out that the door hinges being of equal length would make this T a 24 or 25.
My question; is the title wrong or is this car an assortment of different year parts?
I am willing to buy reference books to read and learn from, but at the moment I know very little about Ts.
The pictures are admittedly not great, but all I have for now.
Please pick it apart. I am thick skinned.
What is the engine number? Does it match the VIN on the title?
The engine number will be stamped on a pad on the driver's side of the engine, just above where the water inlet bolts onto the block.
Number fits for a '24
Number fits for a '24
Gene, Well, you picked the right group to "Pick it apart!"
Ts are notoriously mis-identified & titled, especially in the '23-25 period. There's another thread here about a guy re-wooding his touring body, which is a '25, so there are detail pictures there, if you can get a closer look at yours. It does appear to be a '25 (which could be made as early as late '24, Ford changed year models about 3/4 of the year, just like nowadays. Unfortunately, some of those details don't show up in your pictures. Not definitive, but a clue would be the front fender/splash shield area. Fenders are easily changed out, so that might not be accurate, but??? The side lamp on the car was not used on "electrics"--that is to say cars with a starter & generator, which is probably why it's just sitting on the seat--someone thought it should be on the car.
'25 bodies have no wood in the cowl area, the door latches on the body are held on with only two screws.
That's my Betsy's number, not Gene's car! I attached the picture to help Gene find his engine number.
It's too bad about the pictures. I can't see whether there's a radiator apron. A 1923 wouldn't have one, but 24-25 would. Here are a couple of things to check. Is it a low radiator (1923) or high (24-25)? Does the hand brake quadrant have four rivets (up to 1924) or two (25-27).
Measure the shell opening.
Low radiator: almost 17"; High: a little over 18".
Top: up to 1924; bottom: 25-27.
Note - the body is definitely NOT 1923 model year because it has the high cowl and corresponding higher and wider hood, higher radiator and shell, etc.
The minutia concerning whether it is a 1924 or 1925 body corresponds to the door hinges.
This is an example of a typical misunderstanding when an owner has a T built in CALENDAR YEAR 1923 but after MODEL YEAR body styles were introduced. For example: a T built in October 1915 with cowl and tail lamps typical of the '17 - '19 and non electrical T s up to 1925.
Your pictures reveal its a '24-'25 touring and the rear fenders will differentiate if its a MODEL YEAR 1924 or 1925
Gene : RELAX !!! Youre thinking that your car is a bucket full of different parts ? Just by the pix it is almost impossible . But by what i see here in the forum these cars mostly like had one part or another replaced but thats common unless you had a 1 owner, 100 miles car , museum owner lol . So i guess you got a little scared when we said that one or another thing dont look right but thats kind of very normal .
I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell you the year of the car or the individual parts of the car, but here's my take on your question:
There are two kinds of Model T owners. One is very interested in 'correctness' of the various parts of the car, and the other just wants a nice looking car that is relatively trouble-free.
Which are you?
I submit that the answer to that question is the first decision you have to make. There'll be many more, but almost all will point back to that first one's answer.
If you're like me, and you want to have some fun puttering with the small details of maintenance, and mostly having fun driving around with your grandchildren, that car looks like a good candidate, from what I can see in the pictures. There are lots of inspection-type questions you need to ask, like whether the spokes are tight in the wheels and whether the engine starts easily and runs a Model T's version of smoothly, but as to the question of originality, what difference does it make?
If, on the other hand, the idea of an engine and body that came from the factory at different times (even though they're all essentially the same) bothers you, or you think it might bother you in the future, then more digging is in order.
In the past ninety-plus years a great many Model T's have a achieved the status of parts salad — a mixture of parts from several years. That's fine as long as the buyer knows and doesn't care. As Dude Jeter said, "It don't hurt the runnin' of it none."
But for those who prefer a car that's "correct", or mostly so, some research is in order. Fortunately there's a lot of information available.
Gene, You have a very nice looking car there, now join the MTFCA, get the magazine and look for a local T club in your area. Get it off the trailer and onto the floor, you'll tend to do more with it if you don't have to deal with the trailer every time. Give the crank a twist and go for a ride, in other words enjoy the car now and don't worry about how perfect it. When you take it out in public, you'd be surprised how many people ask you questions and pictures.
I believe Gene is still in the tire-kicking stage, wisely trying to find out what it is before buying.
Lots of Model T's over the years have come down to us having repairs, parts replaced with what was available and no telling what else. Your T is no exception.
Engine changes is a common issue which sometimes changes the car year simply by being a different no. on the title.
I guess we can blame a guy named Henry Ford that built his cars that had lots of parts and pieces that would interchange from one year to another.
I have 3 T's that are in the range of 90 - 95 % of being 100 % correct. And you have to look close to see any differences. But all the parts fit! My 24 Coupe is the 95% car that my Grandfather left me over 60 years ago. I'm leaving it that way because that's pretty much the way he had it.
As others have posted, along with Larry Smith, the T has all the features of a late '24 or '25 as the windshield frame has holes for rear view mirror and likely hole for wiper too, earlier frames are undrilled.
High hood body, hood, and radiator with apron.
Really nice body, and looks good to go!
And this shows just not too clearly, but I can see the later 'so called' commercial fender with wide molding going under the splash shields. A late '24 and '25 feature.
Thank you everyone for the great responses.
I deeply appreciate your taking the time to help out a new guy.
I have not owned an antique car for 28 years.
In the interim, I have raised a family of four wonderful children. My last ride in my 1934 Pontiac 8 was from my house to the church where I married my wife 28 years ago.
I do not want a show car, just a fun driver to take out on the rural roads of Northwest NJ.
If I appeared uptight in my post, it was unintentional. I just wanted to know what I was getting for my money. My $5500 offer has already been accepted.
I am not taking the trailer, even though it is included in the sale, since my niece's husband owns a towing business and will flatbed the car with a roll-off for the two hour ride home.
Looking forward to a few small stone dings and wiping ice-cream off of the back seat after taking the family to the local Dairy Queen!
Thanks again everyone!
Neat car for what you are wanting to do.
I build my own trailers and although you may not need it,you can always sell that trailer to someone else that does,as they are handy.And that 1 looks to be built just for the job.
My T's are parts salads as Steve calls it.Good name!. Have a ball and wear it out.Rebuild it and go over again.
My guess is $5500 is pretty fair. Take the trailer if it's still available and put it up on the classifieds here, any money you get for it can be spent on any surprises the T has waiting for you.
And you can pretty well bet on it having some surprises for you. Most of them do.
Oh dear, lipless front fenders along with a splash apron under the radiator!
IF I see all the details correctly, who cares. :-)
Nice lookin' Ford and hope you have way too much fun with it!
OK Gene, has anyone grilled you about the rear axle bronze thrust bushings verses the Babbitt thrust bushings yet?
That is a most important safety issue. True. :-)
Be sure to take the rear axle apart and check for babbit thrust washers-before you do almost anything else! Use the trailer sale money to pay for the rear axle repairs!
I like the accessory front bumper. If, as Dan says, the front fender bead goes under the splash shields, then it is probably a an early '25 (made in late '24), and is likely a fairly intact, not built from parts car. A great find! I suspect you got yourself a real sleeper. Now to get the correct title for it!