Wanted information on Canadian and Canadian export right hand drive cars and chassis produced 1919-1923

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Wanted information on Canadian and Canadian export right hand drive cars and chassis produced 1919-1923
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, November 27, 2017 - 09:22 pm:

I'm trying to gather some information on when Ford of Canada began producing the right hand drive Model Ts and chassis with the starter and generator. Also when they began exporting the cars as well as the chassis. Any one have or know of a RHD Canadian car in the 1919-1921 time frame in Canada? What about outside of Canada?


And when did Ford of Canada use the special engine front plate that allowed a belt driven generator to be placed on the left side of the engine as shown below: [Thank you Peter Kable for posting that at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/150437.html?1291082462 and stating 1919-1920 as probable dates] And was it for use with export only?



And when did they change to the new RHD steering bracket that allowed the normal gear driven generator to be used with the RHD steering set up. Again thank you to Peter Kable for this picture also which was from the same thread mentioned above and which indicates sometime during 1921:



From David Chantrell's excellent book "Duncan & Fraser Ltd. "Legacies Left Untold" he shares on page 131:

"The first shipment of starter motor and generator cars [I believe the would have been chassis] arrived in Adelaide [Australia] at the end of October 1920."

That is where the Duncan & Fraser Ltd constructed their various bodies that they fitted to the Ford Model T chassis.

Can anyone confirm those were right hand drive chassis? I suspect they were. And I plan to try and contact David to ask him about that. And did they have the belt driven or the gear driven generator?

Does anyone know if Australia allowed LHD cars in the 1919 - 1921 time frame?

What about other British Colonies? Were the RHD only or was either LHD or RHD OK?

The thread mentioned earlier had a lot of great information. I am trying to add a few more details. I would especially like to know what Ts in New Zealand were like in the 1919-1921ish time frame?

Thanks to any help or leads folks can provide.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By wayne tomlins on Monday, November 27, 2017 - 11:52 pm:

John Stokes new book 'Ford in NZ- Putting the Car before the Horse' discusses most of the above pertinent to the New Zealand market.Lots of information on the Canadian Model T in NZ. Cheers- Wayne in NZ.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ivan on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 12:58 am:

Not sure what might have or not been allowed in Australia, but in New Zealand, my Grandfather's 1913 Model T would have been a Canadian produced vehicle and it was definately RHD. The only LHD Model Ts in New Zealand are either a very few very early cars or private imports, either of the period or of much more recent times as imported parts/ projects / cars.
I have a couple of the left hand generator mounting brackets which of course can be mounted to any block as far back as about 1912/13.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy Traralgon Australia on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 01:57 am:

Hap, After being around Aussie/Canadian T's my whole life, I think I can be pretty sure all Canadian imports were RHD right through production. I say this not based on documented evidence but on observation alone! after years of attending Swap meets and looking through collections etc looking for parts I have yet to find any LHD parts. No transmission covers, no steering boxes or hand brake assemblies. The job card for my Dads 1910 chassis makes specific mention of the chassis being fitted in Walkerville with RHD components before being shipped to Australia.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 07:43 am:

Update, I my e-mail to David Chantrell did not go through. I used his e-mail address that is listed on his website: http://duncanandfraser.com/ but it was returned with a note "address rejected." If anyone has current contact with David, would you please forward the following question to him?


On page 131 of your book you have:

"The first shipment of starter motor and generator cars arrived in Adelaide at the end of October 1920."

Can you confirm those were chassis only? And that they were RHD? And if they had the belt driven or the gear driven generators?



For Wayne,

Yes, I'm very much looking forward to reading John Stokes' new book "Ford in New Zealand - Putting the Car before the Horse." My copy has arrived, but I'm trying to catch up with everything after fighting a cold the past two weeks or so.

For Ivan,

Thank you for sharing! You are correct that Ford of Canada sent numerous RHD cars to New Zealand between 1909 - 1919ish. And they would have used the earlier style RHD steering bracket to frame (see photo above). What I am really trying to find more information about is what happened during that time frame when Ford of Canada introduced the starter/generator cars and when they started producing them with the later RHD steering bracket to frame that allowed the gear driven generator. Did they only ship non-starter RHD cars to locations that used RHD cars or did they perhaps send LHD cars until they figured out how to have the RHD cars with the starter? And there is lots of evidence that once the newer style RHD steering column bracket was available it was used for cars and chassis sent from Canada to New Zealand and other countries. I know -- some of you are thinking -- get a life.... But it is something I am hoping we can refine a bit more.

For Warwick,

Thank you for sharing. The fossil evidence can be very helpful. Sometimes a little misleading (for example all those photos of the brass bell hand Klaxon horns on the 1915 Fords) but usually giving additional leads and support. And as you point out some of the early job cards say RHD.

I'm hoping to find some additional details on how and when the transition to starter equipped RHD cars occurred.

Thanks you to anyone who can assist with this.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 07:43 am:

Update, I my e-mail to David Chantrell did not go through. I used his e-mail address that is listed on his website: http://duncanandfraser.com/ but it was returned with a note "address rejected." If anyone has current contact with David, would you please forward the following question to him?


On page 131 of your book you have:

"The first shipment of starter motor and generator cars arrived in Adelaide at the end of October 1920."

Can you confirm those were chassis only? And that they were RHD? And if they had the belt driven or the gear driven generators?



For Wayne,

Yes, I'm very much looking forward to reading John Stokes' new book "Ford in New Zealand - Putting the Car before the Horse." My copy has arrived, but I'm trying to catch up with everything after fighting a cold the past two weeks or so.

For Ivan,

Thank you for sharing! You are correct that Ford of Canada sent numerous RHD cars to New Zealand between 1909 - 1919ish. And they would have used the earlier style RHD steering bracket to frame (see photo above). What I am really trying to find more information about is what happened during that time frame when Ford of Canada introduced the starter/generator cars and when they started producing them with the later RHD steering bracket to frame that allowed the gear driven generator. Did they only ship non-starter RHD cars to locations that used RHD cars or did they perhaps send LHD cars until they figured out how to have the RHD cars with the starter? And there is lots of evidence that once the newer style RHD steering column bracket was available it was used for cars and chassis sent from Canada to New Zealand and other countries. I know -- some of you are thinking -- get a life.... But it is something I am hoping we can refine a bit more.

For Warwick,

Thank you for sharing. The fossil evidence can be very helpful. Sometimes a little misleading (for example all those photos of the brass bell hand Klaxon horns on the 1915 Fords) but usually giving additional leads and support. And as you point out some of the early job cards say RHD.

I'm hoping to find some additional details on how and when the transition to starter equipped RHD cars occurred.

Thanks you to anyone who can assist with this.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 05:17 pm:

Hap, I agree with Warwick's observations about LHD cars in Australia.In 50 years of tinkering with T's, I have yet to come across old time LHD components.

Re the belt driven generator set up used early in 'electric' cars, very little fossil evidence has surfaced, which my indicate that the system was very short lived. It was complicated, likely costly to make and flat belt drive to a generator was likely less than satisfactory. I suspect the modified lower bracket and redesigned steering column control rods were developed sooner rather than later.

What I don't understand is the English response to the introduction of the generator cars. For a few years they reverted to LHD cars so the problem did not apply! Given the early development of an entirely satisfactory system in Australia, what were they thinking?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 05:50 pm:

A very good and pertinent question Allan! You may have to get a hold of my book!

Hap, did you receive my email with the attachments? And are they readable?

Best wishes - John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 06:23 pm:

For John,

I did receive your e-mail that said you would e-mail attachments after you got off from work. But they have not arrived yet. I suspect it is my e-mail provider.
But feel free to send them to both my address and my wife's e-mail and it should get to one of those.

Thank you to those who sent me David Chantrell's new e-mail address. Computers aren't near as user friendly as the old postman who knew which Grandma had grand kids in which city, and would actually get the letter to the correct house. With computers it has to be exactly correct. I guess that is one reason I like the T -- it is still analog...

For Allan -- the English were probably wondering the same thing, as it was the American leadership that had been put in place that implemented that decision to go to only LHD in . I believe someone who understood the English people would have adopted the RHD as soon as they could have. But that is my opinion and I was not there.

I hope we can find some documentation that clarifies the time frame that Ford of Canada used the belt driven generator and when it started using the gear driven on for the RHD cars.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 07:47 pm:

Hap the excerpt that we are trying to get to you will give you the start date for the belt-driven assembly.

(I sent it again about 8 or 9pm my time last night - I shall try sending it again right now.) I'll check back here soon - perhaps if you could let me know here if it arrives or not.

Thanks - John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 07:50 pm:

Hap I suspect you are on EST in the Carolinas? John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 07:57 pm:

Just gone again. It is probably about Waikiki by now.

If that doesn't work I'll send it from the work computer when I get in there.

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 08:04 pm:

John,

Thank you so much. Yes, that one got through. I will read it and get back with you.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 08:13 pm:

Great! Thanks Hap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ivan on Wednesday, November 29, 2017 - 02:17 am:

As Allan Bennett has said, I cannot understand why the English would have allowed entry of LHD cars when neither Australia or New Zealand did. Surely if they were providing the "alternative" bracket to us, then the UK market could have used it too ? Perhaps you need to talk to the Tuckett Bros for their input ?
Ditto for Allan's comment, I have been around T bits & attending swapmeets since the mid 1970s and have come across very little in the way of LHD parts.
The late Hoss Olsen had collected for many years but his estate clearance in about 81/82 ? featured one LHD 'project' car and perhaps half a dozen LHD components in an auction of about 1600 lots.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ivan on Wednesday, November 29, 2017 - 02:30 am:

I should perhaps add that I have 2 or 3 of these 'alternate' brackets and only perhaps seen as many again at swapmeets but never actually seen one on a dead engine nor a running car.
The Commonwealth / Australasian market must have been deemed large enough as even small accessory parts makers produced RHD versions of their wares, as I have a set of "Bennet" aftermarket TT brakes in a RHD configuration with RHD castings/ forgings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Wednesday, November 29, 2017 - 02:18 pm:

Ivan - that is not quite what Allan Bennett said.

Rather, he queried why the English were provided with LHD Fords in that 1919-1921 period when NZ (and Australia) had RHD versions.

Left-hand drive cars were perfectly legal in NZ in those days.

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ivan on Thursday, November 30, 2017 - 04:17 pm:

Not going to get in to an arguement, but as he writes "For a few years they reverted to LHD cars ......... Given the early development of an entirely satisfactory system in Australia, what were they thinking? "
The brackets in question are Ford factory productions so I imagine all their RHD "electric" vehicles would have been so equipped ?

The question is more "Why would the British Govt allow them on the road Just so Ford could have a elec starter?" After all it was the poms that were hot on the 'man with a red flag out in front' idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Thursday, November 30, 2017 - 11:04 pm:

Ivan - when you read my book you'll find some of the answers to your questions.
Best wishes - John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 01:34 am:

Here is the explanation for why the English went to LHD during that period that the generator was interfering with the steering column.

The image is a scan from the book " The English Model T Ford, A Century of Model T in Britain."

Best regards, John Page , Australia.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 02:31 am:

Hap

The only evidence that LHD car arrived in Australia that I have found is the remains of a 1910 found in Western Australia (I till have part of the Transmission Cover), a 1910 engine found in the 1950s in central north Victoria (I have a photo of it as found with Ford script facing correct way) and Bob Trevan's Water Pump Touring (if you read the original Job Card, it was a LHD & for some reason all documentation in Vintage Ford etc says RHD but this is incorrect). The 2 and only 1909 Water pump news paper photos I have copies of, both show LHD.

So it appears that LHD did come here for all water pump cars, in 1909 and 1910 but in very small numbers.

I have seen a 1920s LHD here but it was an import from England in the 1920s having English lowered fittings.

The 1917-1919 early imports of Edwin Brown direct from USA prior to his "Palm Cars" (Fords sold under a different name from Aug 1919 to 1923), most likely were sold as LHD in the early part of his 1917-1919 sales era.

So generally, all T sold in were RHD except for the odd 1909-10 model.

Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 03:09 am:

Hap

I have owned 2 complete RHD generator units and another 2 plates over the years. My two complete units were made up of parts from all sources, so your looking t the remains of 6 or 7, I found (one part from NZ). I do think more came here than what people generally think. Cars were also sold with or without starter/ generator for that period.

The large fan pulley was cast iron (not alloy) without a lip on the back edge. I am not sure if this was just for the Generator cars of for all cars for sold for that period. I have found at least 4 of them over the years.

Yes it was a complicated design and 3 out of 4 plates I had, were broken or cracked on the oil filler. I am unsure why they were broken in this area. Maybe the casting was hard and brittle.

The replacement design for the conventional Generator mount used an alloy wedge to slope the steering column to one side to line up with the later 1920 to 1925 style lower bracket that was designed to clear the generator. I still have a few of these if you need photos, they have the ford part number and manufacturer mark in them.

There were more than the 3 steering brakes for RHD used as in your photos. There was the 1909-10 style without the Greece hole, the 1911 and early 12 bracket that had the same angle, but with Greece hole (steering column location same as 09-10 on dash and 4 holes in flange the same pattern as 09-10. Then in 1912 sometime, they changed the angle by a few degrees and dropped the steering column flange location (lower mounting hole / holes in flange moved to lower the column). I suspect the change came for the slab side 1912 body.

Although later 12 to 19 brackets are all the same angle for cars and look the same, there are typical manufacturer pattern marks on them for Canada for the period they were used. This also applies to 11 and early 12 brackets. There were early and late markings by manufacturer for that period

Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 05:46 am:

What Mark is saying Re. my LHD Pre.production is correct.
Even though the car was exported by Ford Canada it was assembled in Nth America Dearborn plant.
I assume it got to be a Canadian export car due to the fact were i read were the Ford Canada plant could not fill in time the planned export amount and needed to draw on Nth Americas stock to fill order before the ships departure?.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy Traralgon Australia on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 08:36 pm:

Greetings Hap and other contributors. I have been watching this thread with interest and keen to make some comments but have needed to back it up with some pictures. My original August 1920 Canadian/Overseas edition Ford Manual is the only Ford publication I have seen with pictures of the LHS Generator mount. Earlier and later editions of the same have no record of this part and neither do and of my Model T dealer and owner parts manuals. I believe the generator appeared only for a very short time.late 1919 into 1920 then was replaced with the standard Ford located Generator. The picture on the left is a rare picture showing the Gnererator located up high on the left on its special riser bracket. I have come accross a few over time but they are generally missing the idler pulley. Somewhere I have a picture of one mounted on a 1919 Canadian block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy Traralgon Australia on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 08:41 pm:




A few more pictures for Reference. The 1916 edition and 1920 edition both show images of the LHD and RHD configuration for Controls which is the same image reversed. I dont think Australian buyers ever needed to reference the LHD controls info as we did not have Canadian built LHD Fords here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 10:33 pm:

Here is the note attached to the front cover of an August 1920 Ford Manuel. This was a NSW distributed book but other states probably also had it on them, as it is just glued on with a small amount it probably fell off some manuels.
belt Drive note

This period ties into Canada's commencement to cast their own engine blocks. As they stored many blocks over winter it could be there was a lot of blocks available of the old pattern so the generator bracket was produced to allow the blocks to be used as electric starter versions.

As mentioned by Hap , David Chantrell noted the first Electric start Fords did not arrive in Australia until October 1920. The August 1920 manuals which Warwick and I have would have been put together and printed before that date, so the first of the electric start Canadian Fords had the belt drive,

The belt drive was only mentioned in the manual for that one year, so it appears the blocks cast with provision for the generator happened soon after ( probably when they exhausted the old style block and began making the later version) and when they solved the problem of putting the steering column next to the generator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 10:38 pm:

hopefully this is a bit easier to read

belt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 03:28 am:

Very good info and thinking young Peter Kable!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 03:46 am:

Peter, it's a long time since I have seen one of these set-ups. Can you refresh my memory on one point? Does the bracket take the place of the usual timing gear cover?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 04:09 am:

Here are the numbers of Canadian Exports to Australia & NZ for 1920, from Bill in Canada. don't know how accurate the figures are, but the total is 2104 for 1920. There is a note at the bottom of the page saying "Last 5 months of 1920, August to December". This suggests they are referring to Calender Years at least on this page. I don't have any other figures past 1920.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 04:22 am:

Gents

I found the Canadian Export 1921 figures, also from Bill. 3245 Cars, TT & Chassis exported to Australia for 1921. I believe these to be Calender year numbers. This might help give a rough idea of numbers of this unique Generator style, once we have an Idea of dates.



Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 06:05 am:

Allan,
If you click on the link in Haps first post at the top you can see a good photo of the bracket front and back posted by peter Martin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy Traralgon Australia on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 06:35 am:


Here is another one for you Allan. This one sits on a rather unique 1919 Canadian block with the engine no. 999999 . Cant find the pic of the engine number at the moment but will find it for interest.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 09:27 pm:

Thank you all for the additional puzzle pieces!

I've been fighting a head cold and I am still working to get better. Several major clues to getting a better date range on this. Warwick posted the illustrations from the August 1920 Canadian/Overseas edition Ford Manual and noted that the belt driven generator was only mentioned in that one and not the earlier or later ones. Warwick -- can you confirm what the earlier dated one was and what the later dated one was (i.e. Aug 1919 and Aug 1921 -- would clearly bracket the dates. While Aug 1918 And Aug 1922 would not clearly bracket the dates. I.e. what about the 1919 and 1921 editions (if there were some?).

And Peter's scan of the note attached to the front cover of an August 1920 Ford Manuel describing the belt driven generator clearly says "it happened" in addition to the fossil evidence.

I think we are gaining ground finding a better date range. And I agree with Warwick's thoughts "I believe the generator appeared only for a very short time.late 1919 into 1920 then was replaced with the standard Ford located Generator."

Mark,

Thank you also for posting the Canadian Export Figures. I sure wish they would have said starter or non-starter on their listing as Bruce's compilations for several years in the USA did.

Also if you have a chance to take some photos of the wedge you described especially with the part number (probably factory number if it is part of the casting) that would great. No rush. And if you or someone can let us know what the earliest Price List of Parts that has the RHD steering bracket that would allow the generator to be mounted on the right and be gear driven.

Minor comment -- the LHD and RHD illustrations above while possibly taken from photos or perhaps from a reversed photo -- they didn't just flip them, as the carb adjusting rod is not shown to the left of the coil box which would have been the case if it was just flipped. The same would be true of the Ford script on the floor mat. But we know they did touch up illustrations that they reused in other Ford catalogs and they may or may not have done that here also.

Bob and Mark, -- yes Bob's water pump car is one of those early LHDs which clearly did happen. But I suspect LHD was not shipped from Ford of Canada to the RHD British Colonies. I am hoping in addition to getting a good date on when the belt driven generator was used to also being able to confirm if Ford of Canada shipped LHD during the 1919-1921 time frame to any of the British Colonies. Since we don't have many poster for South Africa, India etc. -- it is more likely that we will be limited to learning what happened or most likely happened in Australia and New Zealand.

Again thank you all for your help.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 11:56 pm:

Hap

The only parts book I have to help with the Generator question is an Australian version for 1923.

Here are some parts of pages








Note the additions of RHD parts 3539RD & 3539RE most likely the new steering post bracket for conventional Generator on Car and TT. if this is correct, the start date for the new bracket would be earlier 1921. The alloy Steering Column base wedge also lines up with 1921

Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 12:13 am:

Hap

I have a friend whom had his 1920-21 "Colonial" Generator rebuilt. He was told that it had more windings than a standard generator. What exactly this meant, I do not know.

I am presuming that the Colonial Generator was supposed to be a Canadian Generator with an extension screwed on the shaft to make the drive shaft longer. I never had mine apart to look. So I do not know if this extra winding refers to conventional Canadian or Colonial Generators with extended shaft.

But I did find a reference to the winding change in the same 1923 parts book which suggests it was just for the colonial Generator and again 1921 on



All other parts listings are for Generator parts are for 1919-23 in this book. Could the change in number of windings be to do with the drive ratio possibly being slightly different? I am not sure about the pulley/crank ratio of the colonial compared to crank/cam/gen gear ratio on a conventional.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 12:14 am:

Hap,
Here is what is listed in the 1919 to 1922 parts books on the steering brackets.

As warwick and others have stated, there is only the one mention of the Left position gene bracket in the August 1920 manual.

The parts books list

1911 to 1921 3539 RB the Right hand chassis bracket for cars ( left hand version is 3539 R)
3539RB
& 1911 to 1921 3539 RC for trucks


from a 1921 Parts and price list (Canada)

1921 to 1922 3539 RD for cars
3539 RD

& 1921 to 1922 3539 RE for trucks

From a 1922 Parts and Price list (Canada)

And others after though some issues do not include all LHD & RHD variations.

From those listings it appears that both old and new versions were needed in 1921 and 1922 which probably says the belt drive and then the camshaft drive generator were produced in that time frame.

Any other listings differing from that don't appear to have surfaced, though if anyone has something extra we all would appreciate it being made available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 12:22 am:

One of these days I will work out how to post pictures that are the correct size??????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 02:53 am:

Also this clue. from a 1923 Overseas edition parts book from Ford Ontario.

3459 R steering Column flange wedge for Right control cars 1921 -1923

This look to mean that up until sometime in 1921 the belt drive generator was used allowing the early steering shaft chassis bracket to be needed.

and then during 1921 the belt drive was replaced with the later design with the generator on the right side of the motor which required the new bracket 3539 RD and the wedge to be put under the column flange at the fire wall as the column had to be put at an angle to the left of normal to easily go between the generator and chassis.

And there is no signs that any LHD Fords came from Canada during this period but some were imported from the USA and most were converted to RHD. The ones that may have not been converted (and it appears there might have been a few) haven't survived for anyone to find as far as we know, but someone may actually chip in and tell us they have found one..

Today lots of LHD T's are here but they have been imported in the last 10 -20 or more years.

Some where I have a 3459 R wedge in the shed but haven't found it yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 04:20 am:

These are the earliest adds I can find for the first of starter motors on Ford for Australia. There are quite a few adds in Western Australia dating back to May 1920, saying that a large shipments of fords were coming in June, July including those with the new Self Starting.

Tasmania also comes up as having a similar shipment coming as well, slightly later time frame. Here is one of the main adds for them being orderable for Western Australia



1920-08-01 Sun-Starter Generator-Perth Sunday Times P5

Here is a definite one on display at the Perth Royal Show, Sept 17th 1920



1920-09-17 Fri-Grave & Dwyer-Starter Generator Perth Show-Perth Call P6


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 04:38 am:

Here is an add for Sept 23 1920 for Parks NSW suggesting they have New 1920 model Fords with Self Starting. May not be in stock though at this time



1920-09-23 Thu- Starter Fords- 1909 Model-Foots & Lancaster-Parks-Western Champion P16

Here is an add for self starting Fords for Young, NSW Sept 28th 1920 saying they are ready for delivery for almost the same price, so maybe they were available in the previous add from Parks



1920-09-28 Tue-Ford Starter-Young Witness P3


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 09:54 am:

If this was a search for a million-dollar treasure even non-car folks would be interested. But I really appreciate all your support!

I'm spurred on by the definition of thinking Dallas Willard [http://dwillard.org/ ] shared:

"It is the activity of searching out what must be true or cannot be true in light of given facts or assumptions. It extends the information we have and enables us to see the larger picture both clearly and wholly. It reveals false inaccuracy and error to those who wish to know. It is a powerful gift of God to be used in the service of truth."

While I don't think we are on the verge of a discovery of the magnitude of penicillin or that the earth is round rather than flat, I do think the various puzzle pieces are going to help us better understand what did or most like did occur with Canadian export sales during the 1919-1921 time frame.

I started a thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/708324/814645.html?1512398940 titled: Hap is Looking for Puzzle Pieces – “When did Ford of Canada start selling LHD starter equipped T’s in Canada? What about RHD starter equipped cars in Canada? Hopefully that will give us some additional information. For example, I don’t think Ford of Canada would have exported the first starter cars – but that is just a guess on my part. But regardless they could not export them before they produced them. Actually, they did in the case of the belt driven generator. Starter hogs head with block off plates, starter fly wheel and the kit to add the belt driven generator would be available a few months later….

Again, thank you to everyone contributing and to the many others that are keeping an eye out for information. Thank you!

Respectfully searching,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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