Help needed with working with rust in the sheet metal

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Help needed with working with rust in the sheet metal
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward Payson, Ut. on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 08:01 pm:

26 Tudor, I have taken a couple of years hiatus from working on my Tudor but am now in a position to get going again. I need some help with the rust shown in the photo of the rear right side panel below the rear window. I have everything striped off and down to smooth sheet metal with the exception of this pesky rust in the surface. The only panel I have replaced is the rear lower panel below the window. It had rust holes in it. No other panels are rusted through (Yet) I need some help with dealing with this rust prior to the finishing body work and paint. Can someone give me some help and advice? Thanks for your help, Rand Right rear side of Tudor below window


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham, Blackfoot, Idaho on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 08:09 pm:

What does the back side of that panel look like, Rand ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 08:26 pm:

I have used Penetrol, a wood preservative, with success in the past. I put it on anything that has accumulated rust on metal surfaces.

Many people claim that after applying Penetrol, which seems to stop rust from continuing, they paint over the surface with no problem.

I personally have only used it to stop rust. I have yet to paint over any surface that I have applied it to.

I will be starting a new project which is a 1949 Ford F1 pickup which has some rust over a good portion of the vehicle. I will apply Penetrol to the steel surface of the pickup bed first to stop the rust. If I decide to keep the truck as is, I will continue to apply the Penetrol to all the obvious rust areas.

Hope this is of some use to you.

Tom L.
26 Touring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Fischer - Arroyo Grande, CA on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 08:27 pm:

As Rich, said, what does the back side look like. If this is just surface rust, you can buy a bottle of naval jelly at the hardware store and apply liberally, scour with one of those steel wire toothbrushes, then wash off with water.

But if the metal is substantially rusted (as in nearly rusted thru), then you will have to cut the section out and weld in an insert.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 08:35 pm:

Blast it. Fine abrasive media, 1/4" tip, 35 psi. Keep your distance, move quickly, and don't try to take it all off in one pass. If holes develop, they were essentially already there anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 09:21 pm:

Ospho will turn the iron oxide to iron phosphate, an inert material. Scotchbrite pads will help remove what you want gone.

I did an entire roadster...first stripping off the paint chemically, then scrubbing with ospho. Enclosed is a picture of a panel, including the good and bad metal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 09:30 pm:

If your body is off and the upholstery out, the tudor has very little wood in it so you can blast it inside and outside. The rust comes from both sides of the metal so you need to seal both sides. After it is clean use a good catalytic primer on both sides. Follow this with sanding primer and wet sand until completely smooth, then follow with the finish coat. Very fine pin holes will be sealed by the primer but larger holes must either be welded up or a patch welded in place.

It is very important that the inside be sealed. I used to have a neighbor who had the entire top of his chevy station wagon welded in and only the outside was painted. It rusted all around the weld. We lived at that time about 2 miles from the ocean and the car was parked outside. Fog and mist gets inside and can rust through.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 09:32 pm:

If your body is off and the upholstery out, the tudor has very little wood in it so you can blast it inside and outside. The rust comes from both sides of the metal so you need to seal both sides. After it is clean use a good catalytic primer on both sides. Follow this with sanding primer and wet sand until completely smooth, then follow with the finish coat. Very fine pin holes will be sealed by the primer but larger holes must either be welded up or a patch welded in place.

It is very important that the inside be sealed. I used to have a neighbor who had the entire top of his chevy station wagon welded in and only the outside was painted. It rusted all around the weld. We lived at that time about 2 miles from the ocean and the car was parked outside. Fog and mist gets inside and can rust through.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vern (Vieux Carre) on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 09:53 pm:

Cutting and welding can be very rewarding for the do-it-yourselfer but if that is the only piece you have, it may be less expensive to let a pro do it as compared to the purchase of equipment and safety gear. Rand, I don't know your skill level nor your perfection expectation of the finished product but sometimes a guy just wants to man up and jump in with both feet, researching a whole new field.
The issue is that rust will come back if you don't get it all and ruin a paint job.
Media blasting or even wire brushing can heat and warp the panel if you don't keep moving or give it a chance to cool.
I suggest watching videos of basic auto body repair and welding safety.
You at least will need a body hammer and/or an English wheel.
Vern


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward Payson, Ut. on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 11:29 pm:

Hey everyone, thanks for your comments and willingness to help me out. I Know what I'm doing with body work and paint. I've done that as a self taught auto body and paint guy for years. My stuff comes out pretty good when finished. I've even done some body work and finish paint from and accident on my wife's 06 Lexus and it came out really nice. My only problem is dealing with the rust on this 90 year old T body. This car was almost a survivor. Just a bit too rough to make it one so, I got busy and tore it apart. I had the body media blasted by someone who knew what they were doing without the resulting common problems associated with warped panels etc. It came back good. The only panel that was rusted through was the rear bottom panel. I replaced that a couple of years ago. Then at the same time, while trying to figure out what to do with this rust, I applied POR-15 to the inside and out thinking that it would kill all the rust. I have since taken off the majority of that product from the outside and am going to take it all off on the inside as well. I don't recall how the inside of the panels look. I'll have to strip it off again and take a look. I do know this, if I don't get it right, I'll be a very unhappy Model T restorer. You have given me somewhere to go from here now. I'll get the inside exposed again and see if it's through the metal. I'm thinking it's not, as it was media blasted and it became apparent then what had to be replaced and what might survive. I'm a bit leery of rust treatment products that you don't entirely remove prior to any kind of seal on the metal. But then again, I'm not the person to ask about that due to my inexperience with dealing with this type of rust. Thanks for all your help. I trust your opinion and suggestions. Thanks!! When I get most striped off the inside, I will post more photos and ask more questions. It's winter here in these Rockies and I don't have a heated shop so it just might be spring now before I get to that point. Ta Da for now. In the mean time I'm going to keep striping the POR product this winter on warmer days and research the products and ideas you have so graciously given me. Thanks again. Rand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rand Ward Payson, Ut. on Friday, December 01, 2017 - 11:34 pm:

Hey, Rand here again, I do weld some. I have a 175 amp wire feed and .023 on up to .035 to I can tackle most repair issues. If it's real fine stuff, I'll take it to someone else but there's a lot I can do. We live on a small farm. You can't have a farm with equipment and survive without a welder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 05:36 am:

Perfect case for using Rustbullet that is exactly what it was developed for...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 07:08 am:

POR is (was) a decent product. The real issue with it is what ever you are painting has to be sealed completely. That is the premise of their product, if you seal it off totally, no rust can form / reform.

If you only do a small section inside and out, the areas all around that can still "soak in" the moisture and reestablish the rust.

I prefer rust converters. Osphro I hear is an excellent product, unfortunately, I have not found it around here. Permetex also makes a similar product which I have used and it works good. It works so good, that I used it this year as the ultimate experiment of it's durability. I have some wrought iron railings out near the street that first had the Permetex rust treatment and then repainted--in white. With all the salt layden snow that will get plowed near that area from the street, it will be to me the final test of what it is capable of.

Basically what I am getting at is you need something to either convert the rust (not a paint over product like POR--which actually stands for Paint Over Rust) or you need to cut it out and replace with good metal or blast the area clean if solid. In my eyes, those are really the only good ways to cure rust.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vern (Vieux Carre) on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 08:03 am:

I also use Permatex rust treatment with no color pigment, after a good wire brushing. It is my favorite product to use on sheet metal but I have to mail order it. It works best, IMO, to lay the sheet metal in the hot sun first, then apply. Things immediately begin to chemically change into a purplish black and a day later you will see the final results. The reason for going this route is when the sheet metal is too thin to grind away at. On thick steel, like plate, or on cast iron I prefer Evapo-rust.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daren Carlson on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 09:02 am:

If you don't want it to come back to haunt you remove it with a fine media and air. That's the only way I know of getting to the bottom of the rust. Then seal it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 11:44 am:

With some effort, Ospho will get to the bottom of rust, and not remove a speck of good metal.

This panel was covered in rust, and the bottom 4 inches all but gone. You can see it is bare, rust free, and no damage to the original metal.

From the very slight nature of surface rust the OP posted in his original picture, I think media blasting is completely unwarranted in it's aggressiveness and risk to the panel. Yes, a good operator could do the job with low risk, but with Ospho there is zero risk of metal damage, and slight surface rust is the optimal surface for it's use.

I used to live in FL and had an old drafty garage to work in. After Ospho treatment, I had wheels (that had been very rusty), treated and sat for the next 9 years with no paint and no returning rust. My machine shop equipment in the same garage, on the other hand required constant maintenance to keep rust-free.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john hardiman on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 12:47 pm:

** rust never sleeps **


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