Those Pesky Cotter Pins! )*(&&^#

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Those Pesky Cotter Pins! )*(&&^#
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire (La Florida!) on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 11:19 am:

After Steve's mishap I started looking real close to my "New" 25,this is some of what I found


As you can see there are no cotter pins in any of the Engine Pan bolts and some of the nuts aren't even correct(new engine bolt kit on the way)

No cotter pins in any of the steering linkage bolts!

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Spring Perch and radius rod nope none here either

Radius rod where it connects to the oil pan bolt instead of stud on left,right side is correct but not safety wired!

Brake shoe pivot bolt nope none there either

I found 2 cotter pins! unfortunately they are installed in the brake cam lever, Hummmm doesn’t seem like they belong there!

My question is is this enough or should I go to HF and get another package?\


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 11:29 am:

LOL, that pack should be enough!

I may be mistaken, but I believe that Ford stopped putting cotter pins in the oil pan nuts at some point, maybe around 1925. :-)


For all the newbies, never loosen a nut to get the cotter pin holes to line up! The nut must be tight! Either tighten the nut up a little more, or add a washer, or file some off the back of the nut so that the cotter pin holes line up when the nut is tight! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire (La Florida!) on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 11:34 am:

Mark My 27 has the cotter pins in the oil pan bolts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 11:40 am:

Mark, you are correct. They stopped using cotter pins on the pan in '25. G.R., my guess is someone else put 'em in at a later date. Still not a bad idea, but boy are they ever a PIA!! But you sure do want them everywhere else, especially in the steering gear! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 11:40 am:

I avoid assortments because they always include a lot of stuff I'll never use. I also use stainless so they won't get rusted in. The pan bolts are not so important, but those steering parts are another story. These lists recently posted by Dan Treace show the sizes and how many are needed on one car.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 11:46 am:

That should be enough, and then some.

I prefer to get the sizes I need. 3/32 x 3/4" is what I use alot of on T's Then 1/16 x 1/2" for comm and throttle rods and such.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 11:54 am:

I was excited about getting my speedometer installed and forgot to bend the cotter pin. It only lasted about a mile. I was glad that was the only problem, even better when I went back and found my gear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevada Bob Middleton on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 12:13 pm:

I buy the sortment have containers witch i fill
Plus one with odd sguff like Steve J says you get buying .
If the pins to long cut it shorter once installed.
Use lock washer like on the motor and brake cross shaft and few other areas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 12:53 pm:

Not doing show cars so the ones I work on get lock washers under the nuts on the pan to block bolts. Everything else gets cotter pins except the spark and throttle rods, they get hitch pin retainer clips.
While you are checking don't forget the cotter pin at the bolt that holds the fan arm on! Had one come loose, caught it before it did any damage. Noting like hearing a tick tick from the front of the engine!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 01:41 pm:

This all explains why I REALLY like Loktite!! And a torque wrench. I reserve cotter pins for suspension parts and safety wire for the wishbone


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 01:57 pm:

The numbers in that list are awfully hard to read. Do I have these right?

3/32 x 1/2

3/32 x 3/5

3/32 x 3/4

3/32 x 1

1/16 x 1/2

1/8 x 1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john pawlowski - NE Pennsylvania on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 02:12 pm:

It looks like 3/32 x 3/5 to me also. But isn't that a peculiar size?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire (La Florida!) on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 02:14 pm:

I think the second one is supposed to be 3/32 x 3/4
Full disclosure those cotter pins were at a yard sale unopened with a price tag of $1.00 so they were very ...hummm frugal!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 04:26 pm:

I doubt that there would be two groups of 3/32 x 3/4, so I'm going with 3/32 x 3/5 on the second group. Yes, it's an odd size. That wouldn't be the only odd size on a Model T.

I found a couple of items listed twice. Eliminating the duplicates, the total is a little lower.

Let me know if I missed anything.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 06:00 pm:

In almost all cases, a 7/64" cotter pin will fill the hole better than a 3/32", thereby keeping things tight. If a pin doesn't quite fill the hole, there will be loosening in service, however slight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Jull in Oakland on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 08:42 pm:

You should peen those wheel hub bolts too while you are performing your safety upgrade.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 11:58 pm:

I believe a great number of Forum readers have also checked every location on their T’s where a “split pin” should be fitted. Me included!

Alan in Western Australia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ross Benedict - Calgary, Alberta on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 01:50 am:

Every spring our club hold a safety check day. Cotter pins are a BIG part of the check list. The attached is from a 2015 T Tour, but still is the one used for our safety check day.

application/pdf
Jubilee T Tour Inspection sheet 2015.pdf (122.9 k)
I believe this is available from MTFCA, as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 08:41 am:

Here is another period list of Model T cotter pins.

Elizabeth's Cotter Pins


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 09:18 am:

Hey G.R. ... that steering link on the tie rod is really bad. Do you need some parts? I'll give you what extra I have for free plus post if you send me some more pictures. I have some spindle arms, bushings etc ... and just tossed bolts that are 100x better than what are in your picture. I'll dig them out of the bone pile.

mosterman@eastman.org


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 09:28 am:

G.R. Looks to me like the radius rod is broken and a piece missing on one side. I think the lack of cotter pin is the minor problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire (La Florida!) on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 11:51 am:

Noel the radius rod is not broken must be a shadow or something.
Mark, I would be glad to pay postage for any parts that I can use I will take more pictures when I get home thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 11:58 am:

If you look at original Ford parts lists, Ford had his cotter pins made to the length needed for use on HIS cars. To my knowledge few of those lengths are being made today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 01:14 pm:

G.R.,

By the looks of those front end parts, I'd say you should order some bushings, kingpins, and tie rod bolts as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 01:26 pm:

Elizabeth's Hair Pins is a clearer look at what Dan posted. It has a few errors.

The fourth paragraph mentions 3/36 x 1/2", a size that appears nowhere in the list. I'm sure it should be 3/32 x 1/2".

The carburetor adjusting rod is listed twice under two different sizes. I would go with the second.

I believe Front radius rods (wishbone) should be Rear radius rods instead. The wishbone is held by nuts on the next item listed, Front spring perches.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 03:59 pm:

I think I would drop the front axle assembly and check it completely out.
While your at it check the ball condition on the wishbone and where it connects to on the bottom of the crankcase.
Replacing all the bushings in the spring, perches and spindles will make a big difference in the way you car handles.

Jack up the front axle so that the wheels will clear the ground. Turn your steering wheel and you will soon find out how worn the front axle assembly is. It might surprise you and might keep you from having a bad accident.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 05:49 pm:

Yep, I'm on it. I've ordered new bushings, and today I blasted a "new" front axle and a steering connecting rod. The wishbone is pretty good, but if I happen to have a better one I'll use it. I'm also replacing the mangled left perch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Jorgensen, Batavia, IL on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 02:32 pm:

I have learned a lot from this thread. It is certainly generous of Steve to share his misfortune with us, so that we can all learn.


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