Experts disagree

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Experts disagree
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 04:03 pm:

A Facebook post included these pictures...






...and this paragraph:

Can you look at the pictures and tell if the band linings are relatively new, I think they have a couple of thousand miles on them?
The adjustment screw on the outside of the hogshead for low gear looks like it is pretty far in to me. The low gear pedal is about 1" off the floor when fully depressed. I adjusted it about 300 miles ago to 1" above the floor. How often should that need to be tightened?

Some answers:

TF — Your pedal cams are toast. Pull the "hogs head" off and replace them.

JL — Why would you say the pedal cams are toast? The low speed band is visibly pinched tighter together, its not compensating for the pedal cam being farther over. I mean, his cams may be bad, many are but I can't tell that from these pictures.

JC — Your bands are wore out !!!
Replace with quality KEVLAR bands, run em loose and give time to get seated ....

Who's on the right track, and why?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 04:21 pm:

Call me blind, but all I see that is odd are the funky nuts for the external band adjusters on the brake and reverse. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gilbert V. I. Fitzhugh on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 04:33 pm:

The spring on the low band seems quite compressed. If stepping on the pedal compresses it much more, the spring will bottom out (or whatever it's called when the coils jam up against each other and there's no room left for more motion) before the lining can adequately squeeze the drum. A thicker lining would spread the ears of the band further apart, and increase the distance between the spring's coils. I'd vote for new lining on the low band. I think JL is offering a correct analysis, but doesn't propose a solution. JC proposes a solution, but opens the discussion up to further violent disagreement as to whether the new band lining should be Kevlar or something else.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 04:35 pm:

Those bands look like Kevlar. Maybe not...

TF is thinking the cams are bad because the OP needs to have the low adjustment that far in to make things work. However, the 1" pedal height tells me he can, (and should), back way off and still get good low band grip. I think the cams may have some wear, but probably not too bad yet. Needs to be tightened only when the band begins to slip.

Bands wore out? I'm thinking not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 04:54 pm:

Yeah, the brake and reverse look good to me. And the lining ends aren't pulling under as so often happens. The low band does look like it's been ridden hard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger - Wyoming on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 04:57 pm:

JL's on track. There is no evidence for bad cam in the words or pictures, and rejects unproven guesses. I would want him diagnosing my car if I didn't know any better.

Don't know if bands are worn out (but sure looks like it), but the low band has no material under the end of the metal portion of the band (at least two of which are installed backwards). Low needs a new lining if for no other reason than this...therefor JT's on track too.

I would not let TF work on my car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 04:58 pm:

Can't tell from there if the bands are worn out or not. Sometimes, if the steel bands are not properly round, they wear out on the bottom half the most. That leaves not enough room for adjustment, bur can still look good on the top ends.
Another possibility would be that the drums had been turned under size a bit. I have never used a drum that has been turned and ground. If I can't clean it up enough with a fine file and some emery tape? I have always found a better one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 05:12 pm:

Aftermarket outside adjusters on the brake & low band ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 05:14 pm:

and undersize worn low drum ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 05:57 pm:

The answer to this guy's question is a simple "no". You can't tell anything definitively from the pictures.

If this guy really wants to know the status of his bands he needs to pull them out for inspection rather than speculate. If worn out replace with cotton and put the correct washer and nuts on the shafts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie Spokane, WA on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 06:02 pm:

Looks like kevlar to me. I would bet a nickel that the low drum is cracked.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 08:38 pm:

Brake and reverse look ok but either the low drum is worn undersized or has been turned undersized or the lining is bad. It is not the cam.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tod Wirth - Richfield, WI on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 10:03 pm:

The low band or drum is a problem (as listed above), and I am a little concerned about the home brewed nuts and washers on the reverse and brake pedal shafts.

One thing that can be determined for sure from the photos.... the bands are installed backwards. The removable ears are on the wrong side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 10:53 pm:

Yep, I can picture one of those nuts working loose and becoming a real headache.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 11:30 pm:

I second what Tod mentioned. Plus, the gold colored band springs generally are problem causers. They don’t retain their springy-ness and can lead to some band problems. Also, believe-it-or not, those home-made looking external band adjusters were actually manufactured/sold by a vendor and have a nasty habit of falling apart inside the transmission and causing all sorts of trouble! They are really bad news!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 11:35 pm:

By the way, did anyone notice the rubber o-rings on the brake & reverse shafts jammed behind the band ears. As well as the rust/acid damage that is present?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 11:42 pm:

Is the owner of this car on the forum?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tod Wirth - Richfield, WI on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 11:44 pm:

Those O-rings (or I should say pieces of them) are destine to plug up the inside oil line or cause other problems as the band ears slowly rip them apart.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 12:00 am:

Adam, can you give more info on those "Home made looking external band adjusters" that some vendors sold? I never heard that before, and what exactly fails on them compared to the stock ones? Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 12:32 am:


The #3426 adjusting nut has notches that fit against raised bumps on the #3415 washer to keep it from turning itself loose. The nuts and washers in the photos appear to be flat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 01:14 am:

John, Here is a picture of the kit sold by the vendors:



The little metal tabs welded to the nuts like to break off...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 01:18 am:

Here is what the original accessory looked like:



Big difference...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 01:53 am:

Those welded on tabs don't have a prayer of staying together. There is hardly any weld on the sides of the tabs to support the end weld. Just a weld on the end won't hold crap. Pretty basic knowledge. JMHO Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 02:25 am:

If the low gear drum is worn but otherwise sound, the wear can be compensated for by fitting a spacer between the band and the lining. I have had a local sheet metal shop cut band wide strips of varying thickness and then put them through their roller to make them conform to the drum.
The band, spacer and new lining are clamped around the drum and the distance between the band ears is checked. Still too narrow, go to a thicker metal spacer, or vice versa.I drill the spacer while it is clamped in place, just enough to make a decent start. Then it can be removed to be drilled right through before the whole is assembled.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy Traralgon Australia on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 02:39 am:

I agree with Tom. Cracked low speed drum. Low speed band has been adjusted right up to get a little drive frrom what is left of the chopped out band. Would like to see pictures of the drum as it is spun around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By RE Helgeson on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 09:48 am:

Cannot tell from the pictures. I would do the following.
1.) Inspect low speed pedal to make sure it is not bent. That would cause a need to over tighten the low speed band.
2.) Inspect notch/cam for wear. If worn then replace. Would also cause a need to over tighten the band.
3.) Inspect band lining. From picture that does not appear to be the cause. If warn reline bands with linings of your choice.
4.) Have a helper turn engine over with crank while inspecting drum surface for cracks. If cracks are apparent. Remove engine from car and repair.
5.) If nothing is glaringly apparent then remove engine and disassemble for detail inspection.
Should also mention the band should be Ford bands and not marked as GM. An incorrect band could be longer therefor causing the problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By lee crenshaw on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 07:42 pm:

Gentlemen, the owner of the speedster, wishes to express his gratitude for the many responses.
The drum was not cracked and there is no Meershom-style outside adjuster.
It appears the low speed drum is approximately 1/8" smaller in diameter.
Allan Bennett seemed to have the best assessment of the problem. He did have the advantage of viewing the problem from the underside.
Steve Jelf, thank you for bringing this to this Forum.
Lee


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