1909-10 buggy rail saddle arms

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: 1909-10 buggy rail saddle arms
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 10:35 pm:

There were sold saddle arms for sale on the classifieds and that prompted some discussion of the differences in these arms. I've posted 5 different sizes here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 10:37 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Brand on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 11:01 pm:

Thanks Kim.

I remember now that some (at least) early ones were threaded for the prop nut to retain the landau irons. What are your thoughts on when the various styles were used? Did they vary depending on top supplier?

Andrew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 12:17 am:

Hi Andrew, picture number 1 is of my early 1909. The arms are longer and threaded because of the self supporting top. Picture number 2 is of my 1910 touring. Number 3 is on a complete buggy rail and irons from a 1910 touring. The arms are much deeper then the ones on my 10. I don't know why, but I've seen another set just like them. # 5 is threaded but shorter then on my 09 touring, might be early roadster? I would think that after the self supporting tops were no longer used, there would only be one size of arm used but that is wrong given the others I pictured. Must be different suppliers, but I really don't see the need for the difference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Hgenter on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 12:40 am:

Thanks for the photos Kim!!

until today... I thought there was only one size for 09's. I see now from the photo of your early 09 why the extra length was needed to support the top.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 02:43 am:

Kim

The longer ones could be later 1910 as Andrew is saying. I have photos of some 10's with the top folded low for these brackets. I did have one of these once. even if this correct, I am not sure if all late 1910 - early 1911's (last of the 1910 style bodies) would have had them.

Not sure about the different sizes in pics 2 & 4. they look similar.

I would go for roadster for the 5th photo as well.

Do you have a diameter size for the Prop Nuts for the front of the buggy rail?


Thanks

Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 03:17 am:

Kim

Pure coincidence but I recently found in the last few days, some original pics of an Australian 1910 with Canadian body and noticed it had similar saddle arms to the one in your photo #5.

Just had to do some more looking before writing this to get my facts correct. Yes they were used on Canadian Touring cars at least for late 1909 into 1910. Have found 4 photos on them on Canadian Tourings for that period. Some photos show the same sharp right angle as in your photo.

They look to be the same Prop Nut used at the front of the buggy rail and could have a fancy swage in them or they could be cast brass with that pattern. Hard to tell from photos.

My Canadian 10 was missing these arms and the buggy rail when found.

Here is the first photo with the second prop nut on the end of the saddle arm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 03:20 am:

Kim

Here is a second photo of another Canadian Touring taken in Australia with the same setup. Note the same sharp angle in the saddle arm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 03:30 am:

A third photo of the late 1909 or most likely, early 1910 police Touring car from Perth Australia that has been posted previously. Is shows the prop nut on the end of the saddle arm.

I don't know if it is reflection or a swage in the end of them. Hard to see any square part for the spanner to tighten it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 03:33 am:

This one is the sister car to mine, also having front doors for the cold south in Victoria. It has the additional Prop Nuts on the arms as well


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 03:38 am:

Just found another one


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 03:46 am:

This Canadian Touring photo gives a good view of the right angle in the saddle arm. Hard to tell if it has a prop nut on the end.



So it looks like the arm is for Canadian Tourings and possibly for US and Canadian Runabouts as well.

All the 1909-10 photos I can find that clearly show this area of the car all have this second Prop Nut on the saddle arm.

Thanks Kim for starting this thread or I may have never got around to posting these photos.

Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 04:34 am:

Hi Mark.
Do you know were the above picture was taken ?.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 05:00 am:

The Western Australian Police Car was taken at the rear of Roe Street in what is now known as Northbridge.
The Government purchased two Model Tís on that order.
I believe I have the names of the police officers in the vehicle.
Always thought it was a 09 due to the brass crank handle.
Alan Long
Western Australia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 06:08 am:

Kim,
My June 09 Roadster has arms like picture #5.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 12:05 pm:

Hi Mark, thanks for posting all the pics. Here is a picture of arms 2 and 4, they are similar but 4 is a little different shape and a bit longer. The diameter of the prop nut is 1.255 in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 02:42 pm:

Here is a picture of mine

Arm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 05:01 pm:

Thanks Kim for the photo of #2 & #4 differences. easier to see. Also for the prop nut diameter. appreciated.

Bob

The last photo I posted was part of a line up of 4 Canadian Tourings in Tasmania. This photo has been posted and discussed before. here it is again



Alan

I think the Perth Police car could be very late 1909, like Dec 1909, but is more likely early 1910. I has the same early Rands windshield as I found with remains of a touring car I later found out to belong to Bill Landy's car, including the Canadian body tag #14529. the police car also has the identical lamp / generator configuration and "Echo" horn as my 1910 Canadian Touring #29508, as found. Brass plating on the handbrake and Crank handle went into 1910. Unfortunately, my These parts on my car were painted when restored in 1968-74, by the previous owner. So I can't tell on my car.

The body tag and some other parts I found, went back to Bill's 1910, where they belonged.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 05:12 pm:

Thanks Robbie for the picture of your 1909 Roadster.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Phil Mino, near Porterville on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 09:17 pm:

Here is another variation. This one is on a June, 1910 Touring with a KH body.

IMG_0621.jpg


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Wednesday, December 06, 2017 - 11:09 pm:

Thanks for that Phil, I've never seen one like that. Interesting that there are so many different variations of the saddle arms.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Thursday, December 07, 2017 - 02:24 am:

Mark.
Bill is still very grateful to this day having received the found ID Tag back!

On another item on Bills (old car) he had a heap of documentation from Canada. Any idea how I can try to get info for 33435 ??? I have a large gap between a RH Control Special engine leaving Detroit for Canada in 1910 and the remains found in Western Australia in 1963!

Cheers Alan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Thursday, December 07, 2017 - 05:12 am:

We have three 1910 Model Tísin WA now and two are Tourers plus a Roadster. I will take note of the Buggy Rails next time as I havenít noticed the threaded section and cover thatís on the Police vehicle. We also have a 1909 USA Tourer which I can access. All interesting stuff.
Alan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Thursday, December 07, 2017 - 04:13 pm:

Alan

I can't help you with any documentation on early Canadian cars. Wish I could. I miss the old days, going to Bill Landy's and visiting all my old friends in Victoria. Good times and great memories!

Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dryden on Thursday, December 07, 2017 - 08:47 pm:

Kim

I have put 2 different cars up, the darker one is car #685 and body #114
The green car is #12141 body #B8735
On the dark car on the saddle arm you can tell where they have cut the saddle part off for the landau iron
Hope this doesn't make it any more confusing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Friday, December 08, 2017 - 01:19 am:

Thanks David

With so many different styles, I wonder if it were the body manufacturer who supplied the different arms when ordered with a top by Ford?

Just a thought

Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff on Saturday, December 09, 2017 - 08:11 pm:

Here is another one for comparison and comment. It is from a late 1910 (May 1910) Canadian T touring. This car is mostly unrestored and still pretty much original. I am helping the owner with research and documentation of features. Comments welcomed.

Jeff


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett, Spalding United Kingdom on Sunday, December 10, 2017 - 11:47 am:

Can't get into the back of the winter garage too easily right now for a photo, but I reckon mine are like #3 in Kim's original post. Car is Aug 17 09 build date, alloy Beaudette body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Monday, December 11, 2017 - 05:27 pm:

I assumed prop nuts located on the rear perches were to accommodate landau lock bars used on the Free-Standing style top. Anyone have data that would identify production approximate dates when this style top became obsoleted for the Tourings? You will occasionally see this top in use on a later 09, but original photos of this top more often show it on an early Touring with the square front fenders.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 05:19 pm:

Thanks for the photo Jeff.

The buggy rail could be correct in my opinion. it does look similar to some of the original photos posted above. It looks like a carry on from the very first T's as in Kim & Dave's photos, but has a longer drop, also as in the original photos posted above.

I don't think the sliding eye bolts are correct though, especially the brass nuts which look to be too thin to be an early nut. The cross section of the material that makes the eye, should be more a "D" shape.

I think the Landau free standing Irons were long gone by this period.

The top fold down saddle looks to be incorrect to me, going by the original photos. Be nice to get more information to clarify this. Also the rear tub internal body irons may be different. If the car is ever apart, please take photos. My June-July Canadian 1910 did not have a buggy rail nor top when found.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 05:24 pm:

Jeff

The prop nut on the saddle hanger in the photo you posted, looks to be correct going by the original photo posted of the police car in West Australia.

Thanks for the photo.

Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff on Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 05:47 pm:

Hi Mark

Here is another view of the rear buggy rail. The brass eye appears to be correct and it slotted on the inside.

This car has been in one family for around 50 years and has only had a partial restoration back in the 1980's.

So far I am finding it to be over 95% correct original parts. I am hoping for a chance to take more pictures in the future which may lead to an article next year.

The leather is original. And the rear doors have storage pockets which I haven't seen on yet on others.

Jeff
Nova Scotia, Canada


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 10:48 pm:

Jeff, the pockets in the rear doors of 1909 touring are standard. Below is I picture of the rear door pocket from 1909 number 6291. Also pictured are the two ways that buggy rails are fastened to the body brackets. I wouldn't say yours are not original, just never seen your style and I'd think they would be made of steel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 02:36 pm:

ok here is mine. body has the three bolt frame bkts . charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Wednesday, December 13, 2017 - 06:25 pm:

Hello Kim:
Any chance you may have a photo of your door pockets showing the interior? Are the Barco fasteners still made by someone?
Regards,
Scott


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