There were sold saddle arms for sale on the classifieds and that prompted some discussion of the differences in these arms. I've posted 5 different sizes here.
I remember now that some (at least) early ones were threaded for the prop nut to retain the landau irons. What are your thoughts on when the various styles were used? Did they vary depending on top supplier?
Hi Andrew, picture number 1 is of my early 1909. The arms are longer and threaded because of the self supporting top. Picture number 2 is of my 1910 touring. Number 3 is on a complete buggy rail and irons from a 1910 touring. The arms are much deeper then the ones on my 10. I don't know why, but I've seen another set just like them. # 5 is threaded but shorter then on my 09 touring, might be early roadster? I would think that after the self supporting tops were no longer used, there would only be one size of arm used but that is wrong given the others I pictured. Must be different suppliers, but I really don't see the need for the difference.
Thanks for the photos Kim!!
until today... I thought there was only one size for 09's. I see now from the photo of your early 09 why the extra length was needed to support the top.
The longer ones could be later 1910 as Andrew is saying. I have photos of some 10's with the top folded low for these brackets. I did have one of these once. even if this correct, I am not sure if all late 1910 - early 1911's (last of the 1910 style bodies) would have had them.
Not sure about the different sizes in pics 2 & 4. they look similar.
I would go for roadster for the 5th photo as well.
Do you have a diameter size for the Prop Nuts for the front of the buggy rail?
Pure coincidence but I recently found in the last few days, some original pics of an Australian 1910 with Canadian body and noticed it had similar saddle arms to the one in your photo #5.
Just had to do some more looking before writing this to get my facts correct. Yes they were used on Canadian Touring cars at least for late 1909 into 1910. Have found 4 photos on them on Canadian Tourings for that period. Some photos show the same sharp right angle as in your photo.
They look to be the same Prop Nut used at the front of the buggy rail and could have a fancy swage in them or they could be cast brass with that pattern. Hard to tell from photos.
My Canadian 10 was missing these arms and the buggy rail when found.
Here is the first photo with the second prop nut on the end of the saddle arm
Here is a second photo of another Canadian Touring taken in Australia with the same setup. Note the same sharp angle in the saddle arm
A third photo of the late 1909 or most likely, early 1910 police Touring car from Perth Australia that has been posted previously. Is shows the prop nut on the end of the saddle arm.
I don't know if it is reflection or a swage in the end of them. Hard to see any square part for the spanner to tighten it.
This one is the sister car to mine, also having front doors for the cold south in Victoria. It has the additional Prop Nuts on the arms as well
Just found another one
This Canadian Touring photo gives a good view of the right angle in the saddle arm. Hard to tell if it has a prop nut on the end.
So it looks like the arm is for Canadian Tourings and possibly for US and Canadian Runabouts as well.
All the 1909-10 photos I can find that clearly show this area of the car all have this second Prop Nut on the saddle arm.
Thanks Kim for starting this thread or I may have never got around to posting these photos.
Do you know were the above picture was taken ?.
The Western Australian Police Car was taken at the rear of Roe Street in what is now known as Northbridge.
The Government purchased two Model Tís on that order.
I believe I have the names of the police officers in the vehicle.
Always thought it was a 09 due to the brass crank handle.
My June 09 Roadster has arms like picture #5.
Hi Mark, thanks for posting all the pics. Here is a picture of arms 2 and 4, they are similar but 4 is a little different shape and a bit longer. The diameter of the prop nut is 1.255 in.
Here is a picture of mine
Thanks Kim for the photo of #2 & #4 differences. easier to see. Also for the prop nut diameter. appreciated.
The last photo I posted was part of a line up of 4 Canadian Tourings in Tasmania. This photo has been posted and discussed before. here it is again
I think the Perth Police car could be very late 1909, like Dec 1909, but is more likely early 1910. I has the same early Rands windshield as I found with remains of a touring car I later found out to belong to Bill Landy's car, including the Canadian body tag #14529. the police car also has the identical lamp / generator configuration and "Echo" horn as my 1910 Canadian Touring #29508, as found. Brass plating on the handbrake and Crank handle went into 1910. Unfortunately, my These parts on my car were painted when restored in 1968-74, by the previous owner. So I can't tell on my car.
The body tag and some other parts I found, went back to Bill's 1910, where they belonged.
Thanks Robbie for the picture of your 1909 Roadster.
Here is another variation. This one is on a June, 1910 Touring with a KH body.
Thanks for that Phil, I've never seen one like that. Interesting that there are so many different variations of the saddle arms.
Bill is still very grateful to this day having received the found ID Tag back!
On another item on Bills (old car) he had a heap of documentation from Canada. Any idea how I can try to get info for 33435 ??? I have a large gap between a RH Control Special engine leaving Detroit for Canada in 1910 and the remains found in Western Australia in 1963!
We have three 1910 Model Tísin WA now and two are Tourers plus a Roadster. I will take note of the Buggy Rails next time as I havenít noticed the threaded section and cover thatís on the Police vehicle. We also have a 1909 USA Tourer which I can access. All interesting stuff.
I can't help you with any documentation on early Canadian cars. Wish I could. I miss the old days, going to Bill Landy's and visiting all my old friends in Victoria. Good times and great memories!
I have put 2 different cars up, the darker one is car #685 and body #114
The green car is #12141 body #B8735
On the dark car on the saddle arm you can tell where they have cut the saddle part off for the landau iron
Hope this doesn't make it any more confusing.
With so many different styles, I wonder if it were the body manufacturer who supplied the different arms when ordered with a top by Ford?
Just a thought
Here is another one for comparison and comment. It is from a late 1910 (May 1910) Canadian T touring. This car is mostly unrestored and still pretty much original. I am helping the owner with research and documentation of features. Comments welcomed.
Can't get into the back of the winter garage too easily right now for a photo, but I reckon mine are like #3 in Kim's original post. Car is Aug 17 09 build date, alloy Beaudette body.
I assumed prop nuts located on the rear perches were to accommodate landau lock bars used on the Free-Standing style top. Anyone have data that would identify production approximate dates when this style top became obsoleted for the Tourings? You will occasionally see this top in use on a later 09, but original photos of this top more often show it on an early Touring with the square front fenders.
Thanks for the photo Jeff.
The buggy rail could be correct in my opinion. it does look similar to some of the original photos posted above. It looks like a carry on from the very first T's as in Kim & Dave's photos, but has a longer drop, also as in the original photos posted above.
I don't think the sliding eye bolts are correct though, especially the brass nuts which look to be too thin to be an early nut. The cross section of the material that makes the eye, should be more a "D" shape.
I think the Landau free standing Irons were long gone by this period.
The top fold down saddle looks to be incorrect to me, going by the original photos. Be nice to get more information to clarify this. Also the rear tub internal body irons may be different. If the car is ever apart, please take photos. My June-July Canadian 1910 did not have a buggy rail nor top when found.
The prop nut on the saddle hanger in the photo you posted, looks to be correct going by the original photo posted of the police car in West Australia.
Thanks for the photo.
Here is another view of the rear buggy rail. The brass eye appears to be correct and it slotted on the inside.
This car has been in one family for around 50 years and has only had a partial restoration back in the 1980's.
So far I am finding it to be over 95% correct original parts. I am hoping for a chance to take more pictures in the future which may lead to an article next year.
The leather is original. And the rear doors have storage pockets which I haven't seen on yet on others.
Nova Scotia, Canada
Jeff, the pockets in the rear doors of 1909 touring are standard. Below is I picture of the rear door pocket from 1909 number 6291. Also pictured are the two ways that buggy rails are fastened to the body brackets. I wouldn't say yours are not original, just never seen your style and I'd think they would be made of steel.
ok here is mine. body has the three bolt frame bkts . charley
Any chance you may have a photo of your door pockets showing the interior? Are the Barco fasteners still made by someone?
Scott, here is a shot of the interior and back side of the door pocket. The burco fasteners are 4 pieces, I donít think anyone ever reproduced them. I bought some years ago from an Amish buggy maker, but there are all gone.
Thanks for the photos, Jeff & Kim. I'm not so sure about the Brass Buggy Rail Eye Bolts now. I too have never seen them before but this is the first Canadian set up I have seen so am keeping an open mind on this.
When the previous owner of my 1910 Canadian touring restored the car from 1968 to 1974, he didn't use the original rear tub body irons that hold the buggy rail. I still have them. The irons used in the car appear to be original and the same as USA ones from what I can see sticking out of the upholstery. I am unsure what is correct and what is not. The cross section of the spare ones appear to be narrow and thicker that original USA ones. Also the short rear ones have a kick in them where they mount on the thick timer board that hold the two tub halves together from memory, will have to check.
I have never had anything to compare them to, so have no idea what was used in the car and what is left over, what is correct or not.
On a side note, the construction of a US and Canadian Touring Bodies are very different. As most people know, the US Touring bodies were constructed in one piece basically from sheets of timber, laminated. A full sheet was not big enough, so a triangular piece was added in to the tub sides. The seat also fastens to the side edge of the seat base frame, with a cover bead that lines up with the bead in the centre of the door.
Canadian tubs are made in halves, left and right, and joined in the middle, vertically, with a cover strip as they did for curved seats on Runabouts and Tourabouts in USA. (not sure about the vertical cover strip on a USA Roadster or Tourabout). What is not commonly known is that the seat tub when joined, sits on top of the seat base frame and screwed from underneath, screwed vertically. The seat base becomes the "Bead" you see on the body that lines up with the bead in the centre of the door. I had the remains of a front seat like this.
Jeff, are the front in body iron extensions for the top also brass? Mine are and look to be original.
The body irons and extensions are still covered in paint from the old restoration. I'll try to remember to check and get more pictures when I next get to view the car.
Here are some photos of my original Canadian 1910 Front seat. It had delaminated and cracked open in the corners.
The side panel, although damaged and appearing flat, sits on top of the seat base and screws up from underneath.
The timber joiner for two seat halves for the Canadian Touring body
The photo of the outer edge of the seat frame shows the vertical screw holes to fasten the side of the tub.
Many thanks for the Photos Kim. I'm sure a Common Sense or Murphy fastener will work here. but am hoping I can locate some of the Burco's.
Does your door upholstery include any sort of hardboard as reinforcement for the panel flap and the compartment opening, and am I correct that the white canvass fabric is the liner for the compartment?
white canvas served as the backing for the door covering and pocket.The pocket is just as you see it, lining is the same material as the outside material.
That is an interesting artifact, Mark. I have never seen a wood seat constructed like that. All of the ones I have experience with (not necessarily Model T) are a wood frame with wood skin much like how a wood frame with sheet metal skin seat would be constructed.
So, on the back of the front seat is there a vertical strip / belt like the back of the rear seats on Canadian touring cars have?
This is a fantastic thread.
Sorry about double post.
Yes that is correct, the back of the front Seat on a Canadian Touring has a vertical cover strip simular to the rear of the back seat. I believe that the front seat cushion was also made in 2 parts, unlike the one piece American version.
I'm always learning from discussions like this as well.
Here is a photo of the corner added piece I was talking about on a USA Touring body (my old 1909). Full sheets were used on USA Bodies to laminate the rear tub in one piece. The sheets that form the ply were not big enough to cover the whole seat, so a small piece was added in the outer sheet to fill the gap. Not sure what happened to fill the gap in the internal sheets.
Hi Kim. The door flap you showed with the diamond pattern was the same as what my original LHD had . Also had '''wooden'' turn lock buttons.
I have seen another rare style of roof [with folding irons] on a early 1909 body in New Zealand .