How many clutch plates do I need when using thick small plate

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: How many clutch plates do I need when using thick small plate
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 08:55 pm:

Iím working on the 09 and it has one thick small disk and many big and small thin disks. The later clutch uses 12 small and 13 large according to the MTFCA Transmission book. I know that the thick disk goes in first as the splines on the brake drum to not extend all the way to the end like on the later brake drum.
My question is how many disks should I use when using the thick small disk.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 08:56 pm:

12 & 13.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 09:02 pm:

Jack thatís what I thought but thatís too many, the clutch locks up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 09:17 pm:

Early clutch packs are, 1x distance plate, 13 small and 13 large.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 09:26 pm:

Measure the total thickness of the later clutch (25 disc).
just a guess on my part but using the thick dics with the correct amount of big and small would be the same overall thickness???????
Like I said just a guess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevada Bob Middleton on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 09:53 pm:

Tony just rebiult mine
Put the thick in then ant then add 12 small discs and 13 large
So thick disk large small large small ending with large


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 09:56 pm:

Tony,
You will need to define, "the clutch locks up"?

When you fit the clutch pack and do up the drive plate bolts it will all lock up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevada Bob Middleton on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 10:00 pm:

Tony the distance in the early tranys that use the thick disc are deeper


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 10:02 pm:

Also, I don't know when USA changed but Canadian up to C65000, 1916 was 13x13+1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 10:08 pm:

Good question Frank.
Could the cotter key in the set screw of the clutch drum be catching a rivet on the drive plate. Can happen.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 10:10 pm:

I used 12 small and 13 large and it locks up as I tighten the six drive plate bolts.
The most I seem to get in before it locks up is 11 and 11. When I put in one more, it lock as I tighten the bolts.
I wonder if I have a mixture of parts such an early brake drum and a later (none 1909) drive plate. The screws seem to go in a long way to get the 13/16 and 2Ē measurement.
Iím confused.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 10:45 pm:

By locking up I mean that with the screws all the way out the driving plate will still turn until I tighten the six bolts. The spring is applying no pressure, but the disks are being compressed by the driving plate and the screws are not touching the pins on the compression plate. Thus when the spring pressure is removed by the actuator, the disks must have enough clearance to run freely.
I think the brake drum is correct 09 because two of the large disks have damaged edges which Iíll like they were trapped in the front of the drum. The splines do not go all the way to the front of the drum. The thick small disk is completely unmarked, it looks brand new. So I donít think the thick disk was in the clutch when the car ran some ten years ago.
I am coming to the conclusion I have a mixture of parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 11:56 pm:

Ok, I see what you mean now, maybe one thing to check, is the drive plate bush pressed in far enough?
That could be loading up onto the clutch hub as you do the bolts up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 02:10 am:

Does it have the right pressure plate (circle with three pins)? I have NO idea the timeline, but there are a few different ones, with different size pins. A large pin pressure plate in a small hole driven plate will do what you describe. The driven plate will put pressure directly through the pressure plate and lock up the clutch.
The only other suggestion I have is the really dumb question. Did you back off the three adjusting screws to allow proper neutral clearance? If your driven plate were adjusted to fit a different disc count, it could also do that. Nine times out of ten, I can grab a driven plate complete with all the adjusting screws and cotter pins and just bolt it in and it works perfect! No adjustment needed. (Fords were well built and tend to be very uniform from one to the next.) But I always check them anyway. And with your wonderful early car, there will always be a few newer pieces mixed in. And they may not fit quite the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 07:17 pm:

Well I wonít say I solved the problem correctly but it now works. As usual with a difficult problem it was two simple ones. First I had an extra small disk under the thick disk. I have no idea why or how it got there, but it was there. Once we had pulled that out we could use 12 + 12 +1 and it was free to turn with no spring pressure applied. The second problem was the pins on the push ring were too short. They measured 0.356Ē from the ring. We found another ring and the pins are 0.520 high, installed it and the screws now look correct with the 13/16 and 2Ē measurements.
Today was progress. I installed a ring gear flywheel so I can run it on an electric starter but I wonít pick up the starter hogs head until tomorrow. Then I think itís family time again ......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevada Bob Middleton on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 09:56 pm:

Tony is the clutch spring on the tail shadt
I had two push rings one was about 1/8" taller and would not let the drive plate seat to the drum
If the clutch spring is installed you have pressure on the clutch plates this lock the drums


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, December 20, 2017 - 11:10 am:

Bob, even with the spring installed there is no pressure on the plates as I removed the three adjustment screws. With the screws removed, there is no contact on the pins, therefore no pressure on the pressure ring. This is the condition when you push the clutch and the pins have no pressure.


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