OT - 31 slant window question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: OT - 31 slant window question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 06:01 pm:

I'm looking for rear fenders for my 1931 murray body slant window deluxe town sedan , put the T's away for winter and want to work on the A this winter , is there any difference in them that I Need to look for or am I just looking for model A rear fenders ?? Thanks in advance .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 06:13 pm:

Re-Read my post and it's clear as mud ! Ha ha , I'm asking is there any difference between regular 30/31 rear fenders and the ones for the 31 slant window . MERRY CHRISTMAS to everybody !! Thanks .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 06:27 pm:

If you just want function -- the 1930-31 sedan fenders work. If you want to be absolutely like it came from the factory -- recommend you contact the Model A Club and get their judging guidelines. From memory I don't recall if all the 1930-31 sedan fenders are the same or if it is like the front fenders where some had some minor differences. Also the book "The Model A Ford as Henry Built It" might address that issue.

Per Snyder's the reproduction steel fenders are temporarily out of stock and they all need some fitting and work. (See: http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/1930-31-sedan-rear-fenders-steel ). And of course fiberglass fenders are available see: http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/fiberglass-fenders-1930-31-sedan-phaeton-rears

I personally would recommend locating some repairable originals.

Note there is good information on how to tell if your slant windshield was produced by Murray or by Briggs. If you have the body tag -- that's great. But if you are going by the arched windows both Briggs and Murray had the arched windows on the slant windshield bodies. Please see: http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/murraybriggs.htm

Good luck with your project.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off (also a 1931 160B)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 06:35 pm:

Thanks Hap , it's a murray 160B , I lucked out and it still has a readable tag . Merry Christmas !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Perry Kete on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 07:02 pm:

Travis,

Would you please post a few pictures for an old car buff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 08:53 pm:

Travis,

You might also want to look at the Assembly Code information by Dave Sturges on the Model A Ford Club of America site at: http://www.mafca.com/downloads/Technical/Assembly%20Plants%20Body%20Number.pdf

Unlike the Model T Fords which didn't use an Assembly Plant letter(s) and numbers until the last few years and then only some of the plants, most of the Model A Ford plants stamped the cars they assembled with the code for their plant. And of course some of the Model A's for one reason or another do not have a visible Assembly Plant. I have searched our Model A but I have not been able to locate an Assembly Plant number.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 09:06 pm:

30-31 sedan rears are all the same with one exception. The 31 fenders have a dimple on the inside rear skirt. This was added to clear a rivet on the rear of the body. I believe Snyder’s and others sell the dimple as a small patch piece.

The reproduction 30-31 rears look nice, but side by side with the real ones, there are differences. I would offer photos but currently am some distance from my stuff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 09:52 pm:

Here are some pics , bought this a while ago , just trying to get to it now , have the original title as I'm technically the second owner :-) I have several to this is my first A , thanks ! Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 09:57 pm:

Several T's , sorry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 09:57 pm:

Travis,

Do you have one or two sun visors inside your car? My car only came with one. I have seen Briggs bodies with two visors and flat firewalls with the gas valve inside the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Grabowski on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 10:12 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek Brookshire, Texas on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 10:16 pm:

Travis, Go to
fordbarn.com
And then to the Model A forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 10:27 pm:

I think the slant window sedans are all steel body,as opposed to the other A fordors which are wood frame.

Am I correct?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 10:44 pm:

Ted,

Structurally they are all steel. If the termites eat all the wood the doors still open and close fine. Same as the Model T 1926-27 open cars. And yes they are typically called "all steel body."

But if the termites eat all the wood out of a 1931 slant windshield -- there is nothing to tack the fabric top onto. The windshield is screwed into a wooden header with wood screws. So those would need to be replaced with screws that had a nut. From memory -- and I haven't looked at one for years, I think the door jam which is metal also has wood inside it for the upholstery to be tacked. And I don't remember if the rear window has a wooden frame around it or not.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 10:57 pm:

Tom,

From memory -- not as good as notes -- the first slant windshield sedans all came with the flat firewall and gas shut off on the inside. When they were introduced the indented firewall had not yet gone into production. But the indented firewall was introduced shortly after the slant windshield 160A, B & C cars were introduced.

Note I believe I recall seeing photos of an "A" (I don't recall which body style it was) but it clearly had a flat firewall that had been restamped and made into an indented firewall with the gas shut off mounted on the engine side of the firewall. Ford didn't throw things out.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 10:59 pm:

Travis,

Looks like a good start on a Town Sedan.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, December 23, 2017 - 03:00 am:

The Murray-made S/W fordor should have the rear fenders with the dimpled inner panel. Also, the rear bumper bars and brackets are unique to these cars. there is no wood in the door latch pillars, but there is twisted paper inserted into grooves in the body for the upholstery to tack to.
Also, the frame has an extra body mount bracket for this body style.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By art ebeling on Saturday, December 23, 2017 - 07:00 am:

David is correct, the fenders have a dimpled inner panel. I believe the other 31-31 fenders may fit the body but will not fit at the running board splash apron. A friend of mine experienced this and got a nice original pair from Bert's Model. Steve at Bert's is a great guy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By art ebeling on Saturday, December 23, 2017 - 07:03 am:

Stiff fingers this morning. That should have said Bert's Model A in Colorado.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Perkins / St. Croix Valley Mn on Saturday, December 23, 2017 - 08:09 am:

Hap, My ‘31 S/W 160-b did have a restamped firewall. I have never seen another. Mine also was a Murray. The way I found out was “Murray Body Corp.” was stamped on the linen cover over the seat padding under the original upholstery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, December 23, 2017 - 08:21 am:

Those slant windshield cars sure look sporty.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, December 23, 2017 - 12:47 pm:

Jeff,

Great looking car! Sometime when you get a chance would you please send me a photo of your restamped firewall? No rush -- I just like to document items like that when I can.

Also, did you look for the Assembly Plant code on your 160B? (see: http://www.mafca.com/downloads/Technical/Assembly%20Plants%20Body%20Number.pdf ).

David -- you could easily be correct about the no-wood in the door pillar. I haven't looked under the upholstery since 1980ish. But I thought the light switch on the passenger side was screwed into wood? Oh well -- that's why it is good to take photos and notes. Thank you for the correction.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Saturday, December 23, 2017 - 02:52 pm:

Hap, There is 3/8” thick tack wood inside the middle pillars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Saturday, December 23, 2017 - 03:00 pm:

I heard that one of the body makers, Briggs or Murray, built these with much more structural wood that the other.

Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Saturday, December 23, 2017 - 03:03 pm:

The guys on the Ford barn told me that my 31 slant window Town Sedan was made in April May of 31 because of a detail on the firewall and a few other things.

The motor was from Nov of 30 so it may have been changed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Saturday, December 23, 2017 - 04:15 pm:

The two slant window bodies are practically identical between Briggs and Murray. The differences I have seen are that the Biggs 160-B usually had a pocket on the rear of the seat and the May had pockets on the rear doors. The body sheet metal pieces were supposed to be interchangeable. I believe the later cars only had a drivers sun visor. On my 31 Murray, only the drivers side block in the roof had holes from the bracket. A Briggs that I also owned had a flat firewall and two visors. This visor difference may have been an early versus late production thing.


Hap is also right about the the substantial wood windshield header. It is difficult to replace and I didn’t find any way to use machine screws and nuts to hold the windshield as on earlier cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, December 23, 2017 - 09:37 pm:

Tom -- thank you. Sometimes I think I have a few too many projects/cars to keep track off.

Richard,

All three of the Slant Windshield bodies 160A (Slant Windshield Fordor), 160B (Slant Windshield Town Sedan), or 160C (Slant Windshield Delux Fordor) had any structural wood. They did have the wood for the top and header. And as Tom Miller shared above -- 3/8" or so thick tack wood inside the middle pillars. But all the wood can be gone and the doors open and close fine. And the body is structurally sound -- you can safely drive it and the body won't fall off or bend etc.
Try that with a straight windshield Model A Fordor or a Model T Fordor and the sheet metal can fall off etc.

If you or anyone else knows of anyone that has evidence to the contrary -- I would love to know more about that. There is always more we can learn.

Also caution: I saw a slant windshield town sedan once that had a lot of structural wood. But someone NOT Ford, had grafted the front of a Slant windshield onto an earlier 1930-31 straight windshield fordor or Town Sedan body. It was easy to spot as they had not finished the job.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Saturday, December 23, 2017 - 10:33 pm:

Thanks Hap. I must have mistaken what I heard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, December 24, 2017 - 02:39 am:

Hi Rich,
Yes, on the earlier straight windshield Fordors, the Murray bodies had a bit more structural wood than the Brigss, especially in the rear quarters. The very early Fordors (1928) were all Briggs and had even more wood in them!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Sunday, December 24, 2017 - 04:59 am:

A friend had a Fordor with lots of wood and traded the body for a slant window with much less wood. The first one must have been a straight window. I did not realize it was a different windshield type. This illustrates the wood in that:



Thanks for the straight scoop. ;o)
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Sunday, December 24, 2017 - 08:53 am:

Travis - If you send me a PM via the forum, I may have a fender solution for you. Also, I will be headed to Buffalo via Erie in a couple months and may be able to save you money on shipping.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, December 24, 2017 - 09:29 am:

Rich -- great photo of a what appears to be a Murray body (arched windows and before the Slant Windshields which also had arched windows -- but both Briggs and Murray SW had arched windows).

I just now remembered about the FordWood site. It has some nice illustrations of the body wood etc. See the Fordor page and compare the earlier Murray Fordor with the later Slant Windshield. You will note on the Slant Windshield that the wood pieces in the door post do not even connect to one another but are supported by the door post.

As a sample the wood for the 1930 Murray 4-dr is listed as:

$2,214 - Body Wood
$1,508 - doors & misc
$1,183 - top wood

And the Slant Windshields are listed as:

$385 - Body Wood
$0 - Door Wood (no wood)
$525 - Top Wood

Note also that FordWood does NOT list the Briggs Fordor body.

And they also have the wood for the Model Ts.

Respectfully OT submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Wednesday, December 27, 2017 - 05:14 pm:

I'm back in town and got these out of the attic for comparison photos. The black fender is Wescott Fiberglass. It is a perfect plastic copy of an original fender. The reproduction steel fenders are close but not perfect. I notice the rear skirt comes back further. In these photos, I lined up opposite sides and set them level where they contact the running board.

The '31 running boards are another story; Tom Rootlieb did a limited run of them several years ago. I was fortunate to get a set for my car.








Also pointed out above, the Slant Window bumper bars are longer and curved more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrett on Wednesday, December 27, 2017 - 05:28 pm:

Hey Travis,
I have a "31 Slant with similar patina. Mine is a Briggs body with indented firewall. Welcome to the barn find club! Sorry I don't have any extra fenders though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrett on Wednesday, December 27, 2017 - 05:33 pm:

Travis, it looks like your car has 16" V8 wheels on it. Good score!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Wednesday, December 27, 2017 - 09:53 pm:

This is my wife’s 31 Model A Town Sedan.
It was my dad’s daily driver in the early 60’s and I drove it to high school when my car was broken.
It has a really big rear seat :-)

It went into storage in 1964 and came out two years ago.
All the smoke is because the picture was taken when we first started the rebuilt motor.
The interior is original with 1 sunvisor and a pocket in the center of the front seat.

The folks on the Ford barn said that it was produced in April of 1931



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, December 28, 2017 - 02:46 am:

Not only are the bumper bars special, so are the short bumper bracket bars.
Rich, that's a neat photo of a '29 Murray Fordor, showing much of the wood structure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis Melnick -Waterford , Pa on Thursday, December 28, 2017 - 09:59 am:

Thanks guys , hope all had a great Christmas !! Our area made the news this weekend with almost 60" of snow in just a couple days !! Erie pa , I fortunately live just a bit south and was spared most of the stuff !! But my regular job is up there so I still had to drive in it . Nice pics and info , tom I will. E getting ahold of you sometime soon , I have the rear bumpers and one is broken but there and I have a welder so I think I can fix it , the v-8 wheels were just ones that I had laying around and they fit so I put them on to move the car out of the guys barn , I have the original wheels but the tires were flat and wouldn't take are so .... thanks for all the info again . Have a happy new year !!


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