1920's/30's Era Dayton Knock-Off Wire Wheels???

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2009: 1920's/30's Era Dayton Knock-Off Wire Wheels???
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neal Jennings on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 10:40 pm:

I asked the owner about the wheels on this 20's era dirt car...

1920's Fronty Dirt Car

...and he responded:

"Neal, The wheels on the car are 72 spoke Dayton dental drive knock-off's which would have been the hot ticket on dirt in the 1920's until the Rudge wheels gained favor on the more expensive cars. The fronts are 4.50x18 ribbed Ward's Riversides and the rears are 5.50x17 Atlas Roadsters. They are real and they are fabulous."

I am interested in finding out more details on the front wheels on these cars as well. Are they the same Daytons?

Spurgin Roadster

76 Lakes Mod

Hudson Lakes Mod

Were all of these 17/18" wheels aftermarket accesories, or were they offered on some production cars?

I am interested in learning as much as I can about these wheels and hubs before I make a costly mistake.

Thanks,

Neal


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike husted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 11:17 pm:

Car 75 front appear to be Buffalo, they are not dayton,
car 76 front appear to be Buffalo,or rudge they are not dayton,
car 87b front appear to be Buffalo, they are not dayton,
yellow race car is the only car with dayton wires. The front and rear hubs are easy enough and cap to have made. none of the rears on the numbered cars are dayton.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Robb on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 11:38 pm:

Somebody:

Is that a supercharger on the first car?

Here's the #10 Dayton Dental Racing wheels on my 1919 Speedster.DaytonsS'ster wheel

They have a ring held on by 3 cotter pins that holds the tire on the rim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neal Jennings on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 11:40 pm:

Thanks for the reply.

Maybe it's Buffalo's that I need to be asking about. What size would you say the front wheels on cars 75, 76, and 87b are...18"

Does anyone have more pics or info on Buffalo wheels similar to these? Were they all accessory wheels? Any catalog/advertisement pics?

I looking for as much info as I can gather.

Thanks,

Neal


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neal Jennings on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 11:47 pm:

Yes, the first car is supercharged. There is more info here...

http://www.buymegivemetakeme.com/fronty%20sprint/index.htm

Now back to wheels... :-)

Neal


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike husted on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 12:07 am:

Bufflo came in 17, 18, 19, 20, 21. dayton did also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neal Jennings on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 01:16 am:

Are there different styles of Buffalo wires? I have seen 18" that have a completely different looking hub...mostly with the small hex nut...not the big 2-wing knock off like these have.

Are these "big car" wheels, rather than Model T wheels? I do know that the 87b car has a late 20's Chrysler front axle...

Neal


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike husted on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 01:27 am:

I still have this car


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Moore on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 02:19 am:

Daytons are usually pin drive that I don't like--a stub that goes through the wheel and makes a round hole egg shaped when ran loose. The dental drive are my favorite but I have never had any--they also got ran loose and the sharp, square "teeth" get round on the corners. I have seen Daytons in clincher and drop center.

The Rudge wheels were European and like a splined shaft--later and not my interest.

The Buffalo wheels are normally clinchers for a T. Sometimes you find Buffalo's in T size with a snap ring assembly; (snap ring not in photo)

buffalo

The drive for a buffalo wheel is a series of "bumps" regardless if they are clincher or snap ring.

Yes there were larger buffalo wheels;


These came on at least Stutz cars and others and what are shown in your pictures, they were used on race cars called "big cars" and "sprints".

Wire wheels are a nightmare to assemble a set; they have different sizes and number of spokes. The black wheels with the NOS Wards Riverside tires are an example (they are dirty but really nice and restored). I bought the wheels at autcion then looked for years for hubs, found a front pair at a swap meet and bought the rear hubs from Chris Eggsgard--the pattern for the knock off caps came from Joe Gemsa then casting and machine work--these 4 wheels with hubs and caps and tires would bring around $6,000--now some will argue with this but I don't care because I wouldn't take it for them anyway.

The primer wheels are 20" buffalo with hubs that fit the T axle--all 4 (with hubs) are restored and just need finish paint. These wheels / hubs would be worth no less than $4,000.

It is just about impossible to buy a wheel here and there and make a set--too many different sizes and spoke numbers. Neal, don't worry about the hub caps--they can be hex or knock off's--if the set matches and what you want that is the place to start. My best choice would be Dayton dental drive in drop center---but I am really happy with what I have (got some others that are "secret").

Tim Moore


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dave willis on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 03:33 am:

the rudge centers go way back .... 52mm "long nose" were favorites if not necessary at indy and top level dirt cars [mostly made with miller bits]..while miller used rudge shells he made his own hubs and forged and machined the most elegant ,minimalist thru-hole two ear knockoffs...most you see today are nickled but the factory gunblued=actually dark rust browned them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Elkins on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 09:14 am:

Tim, you just continue to amaze me with your stash :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neal Jennings on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 12:27 pm:

Thanks Tim. That is great info. How about the hubs...I Buffalo's listed as #3, 4, 5, 6. I assume the numbers correspond somehow with hub diameter? Seems most T stuff is #3. Do you think the cars I showed are also #3..or would the "big cars" typically be #4?

I am planning to build a car very similar to the 87b car...so that is the look I am after...except with wires on all four corners.

Thanks,

Neal


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 04:34 pm:

AFAIK, Houk of Buffalo was one of the first to make wire wheels in the US with deep hubs for cornering strength. I have a Barney Oldfield testimonial for them after his winning the 1913 Los Angeles - Phoenix race.

#3 is for lightweight cars.

#4, like these, is still for 23" clinchers, but for heavier cars like Overlands. I have them with plain pin holes, fluted pin holes, and reinforced pin holes, and believe them all to be the Houk, but there is no name on any of them, except the hubnut plate on some.



All the #5 Houks I've seen have split rims, and are on bigger cars, like this 1919 Franklin.


From an ad in "Model T in Speed & Sport," Houk became House, which I believe later became Buffalo Wire Wheel Co.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Moore on Saturday, August 08, 2009 - 11:27 pm:

The black wheels are #4's and in 21", the primer wheels are #3's and the hubs fit the T spindle and axle. Your photo of car #75 looks like #4's and the others are at least that or larger.

Most T buffalo wheels are clincher--those that were one time snap ring get converted to clincher as the rims are bad and guys cut the spokes and use new clincher rims that are available. The Buffalo reproductions that have been available on and off have been clincher.

My black set took about 10 years to put together and that was after starting with 4 wheels. The primer set have all new spokes and are ready for finish paint. The inside of the rim is painted as is the back side of the center because I put them in my engine stand that has an axle stub in it to rotate the wheel to paint the spokes, rim and center. Wire wheels are terrible to paint.

Wire wheels are normally found in front pairs or only front hubs on trailers--the rears or rear hubs are much harder to find.

Good luck, let us know what you have found and if you get them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, August 09, 2009 - 09:07 am:

If you're adapting to T hubs, you save weight by using bigger car front hubs on the rear, too.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 05:38 pm:

Our 13 T had Houck wires when we bought it. I love them (run true, no wobble), except they don't have locking hubs, and I have to tighten them periodically.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 07:56 pm:

Hope you don't mind me hi jacking this post but does anyone have any ideas what make these wire wheels are??? the hub has three heavy splines.




mystry wheelhub


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Houston, Broken Arrow, OK on Monday, August 10, 2009 - 08:19 pm:

Don't have any idea Peter. Just going to add that I have been very successful at powder coating wire spoke wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By johnd on Tuesday, August 11, 2009 - 09:09 pm:

Peter I believe Stan Howe also has some of those wheels and hubs?? He does not know the brand either unless he has just learned


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable on Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 08:32 am:

No he hasn't John I own them now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Niedzielski on Wednesday, August 12, 2009 - 11:45 pm:

Stewart ??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By nyle reed on Saturday, September 26, 2009 - 07:37 pm:

I have 3 30x31\2 buffalo wire wheels and 2 very nice front hubs for sale Will not separate.do not want to ship $1000.00 Nyle Reed Fresno ca 559 4310469


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By nyle reed on Monday, September 28, 2009 - 12:24 pm:

the 3 buffalo wire wheels and 2 hubs I had for sale sept. 26, 09 are sold. Thanks nyle reed


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By johnd on Friday, October 02, 2009 - 09:32 pm:

I have a set of 5- PHELPS 30 x 3 1/2 dental drive wheels, that need rerimmed and respoked, I bought 4 wheels w/ front hubs, and 20 years later I found rear hubs w/ drums and 2 more wheels, so now have 5 wheels, w/ all hubs, needs 1 inner plate made to be correct to hold the wheels to the hubs, have NEVER found a CAP for a PATTERN 2200.00, come after them or I'll ship them UPS and you pay freight and Ins. I then have 1 EXTRA 30 x 3 1/2 dental drive wire wheel for sale 375.00, needs rerimmed and respoked, I also Have 1- # 4 HOUCK 30 x 3 1/2 6 pin 350.00, 1 plain faced ( no upset either way) 6 pin ?? wheel 30 x 3 1/2 came off the other # 4 HOUCK hub 350.00 plus UPS danuser88@socket.net also have what is believed to be cast center 30 x 3 1/2 6 pin PASCO"S wheels ( have 3) want 800.00 for the 3, these have good rims put them on and run them if you find the hubs


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Webb on Saturday, October 03, 2009 - 12:47 am:

Peter,
Those wheels look like stewart to me.


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