If an engine no. says the car was built on Oct. 22, 1922, would it have a high or low radiator? I've looked at Bruce's book but it appears this was a time of the transition so I'm not sure. I thought I read they introduced the high radiators in August or so, but in another place I thought it says they didn't until late Oct/Nov.
Thanks!
Verne

All 1923 models were low radiators. High radiators weren't introduced until the 1924 year model start of production in the summer of 1923.

Seth

I'd sure go by the body. My '23 roadster has a '21 engine but has the stylized sloped windshield with low radiator.

Low/high radiators are not interchangeable and only fit with the body they were designed for. Quickest way to know what body you have is firewall width. If firewall is wood...it's low radiator...If firewall is steel, and it's 24" wide it's a low radiator body, if 28" wide (I think) then it's a high radiator body. Combine this info with what Seth said and you'll have a good idea what you have.

Also, a low radiator has a 17" tall core and a high radiator a 18 3/8" tall core.

I have a radiator shell I picked up at a garage sale. What can I measure to determine whether it’s a “high” or a “low”?

-Dave

Seth - are you sure about the '23 & Low Radiators? I have a '23 TT with a high radiator. I was under the impression that they changed from low to high mid-year. I don't know exactly when my engine was produced, but I do know that it is a '23 serial number. Also, TT's aren't very good on standardization. Mine has a wood cab and seems to be correct for the year.

Fred,

I heard Bruce McCalley state here that all high radiators were '24 models though he may have been only talking about the cars. It was the middle of the '23 calendar year but they were producing '24 models. What he said agreed with the info in the encyclopedia.

Trucks? You got me there, but I can't see Ford producing both low and high at the same time.

Seth

It was August of 1923 when the high radiator was introduced, according to the encyclopedia. Ford literature referred to them as 1924 models.

Yardstick accuracy. I've found some variance in these, particularly among the low shells.

as per Model T Encyclopedia
1919-1923
Similar to 1917 but mounting holes larger for cushion spring mount. Outlet hose length increased to 4” for better fit.

1924
(Introduced about July 1923)
Higher radiator. Outer shell now had a skirt at the bottom, over engine mount area.

I'd guess the conclusion that can be drawn is that the very late '23 "might" be high radiators. Also, all '24's were high.

Great information that has been shared so far! Note the original question “If an engine no. says the car was built on Oct. 22, 1922, would it have a high or low radiator?” Is yes, if the car also had the body that was put on it at the factory on/about Oct 22, 1922 it would be a low radiator. And as pointed out above – because both the engines and bodies have often been changed out over the years – you need to make sure that the radiator shell, hood, and cowl match and it doesn’t really matter what year the engine is. Note also that Ford was running an “analog” assembly system back then. And change was often over days and weeks rather than minutes. In the case of a car assembled on about Oct 22, 1922 a lot would depend on what model the car was and also where it was assembled. At http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1923.htm Bruce has: MAJOR MODEL YEAR FEATURES:The “1923” touring car style was introduced in September 1922, with a one-man top and sloping windshield, but otherwise the body was the same as the 1922. The runabout followed about November, with a new body and turtle deck as well.” Note on page 329 of “Model T Ford” Bruce has the runabout introduced in Oct – but still after the touring was introduced.

That would mean at the Detroit factory they were probably producing the low cowl slant windshield & one man top 1923 style touring car at the same time they were still producing the 1922 style straight windshield two man top roadster/runabout style – perhaps as late as the end of Oct. And depending on the availability of the new 1923 slant windshields and one man tops I would think that the branches continued to produce the straight windshield & two man tops a little while after the Detroit main factory switched to the new style windshield and top for the touring. At least for many of the other changes they were implemented first on a limited bassis at the Detroit and then to Branches.

When Detroit introduced the high radiator high cowl cars – I’m sure there was some overlap when both styles 1923 low cowl and 1924 high cowl were produced – maybe not as spread out a time frame – but clearly for more than a day.

For the Ford Factory TT production C-Cab open trucks, they are only shown as 1924-1926 cowls (We no from page 473 that Ford also produced 91 Open Cab TT trucks in 1927) and there was no mention of a low cowl 1923. Ref Bruce McCalley’s Price List of Parts CD. From that we can know the C-Cab was a 1924 model year high radiator & high cowl vehicle.

Note for TTs and Ts with wooden cowls for after market bodies – you can fit either high or low radiator and hood by changing the “wooden hood former” to match the hood and radiator. You can even have a brass radiator TT by using a brass radiator hood former, hood, and radiator. Ford never offered a brass TT but that is why you can see them today – it is an easy swap out if you are rebuilding the hood former area. And there is a good chance that Ford used up the old parts on the bare trucks & bare car chassis. It has been documented that in other years he did that. That allowed the car to be updated and the older parts to be used on the truck and/or chassis.

Fred many high radiator cars and TT trucks were produced starting in Jul or Aug 1923 depending on the reference. But they were called by Ford 1924 year models. Just like the 2010 cars have been available for a while already even though they were produced in 2009. Ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1924.htm

Again thanks for all the great information. I know many of us use it to update our notes. There is always lots more to learn and discover about the cars and their owners.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

Like Hap says, a lot of interesting information here.
I checked my serial number - 8,989,413 - and it appears to be very late in the 1923 calendar year. It probably should be a '24. I bought it with a good Ohio title several years ago.
I've gotten Indiana titles for five T's and when the cop does the inspection, he takes my word for the year. I always give him the correct year for the body of the vehicle instead of the year of the engine serial number. Three of the five have had the engines replaced at some time. This may, or may not have happened with my TT. No problem to me, I just drive it and call it a '23.

I went back and re-read Bruce's book tonight. I think what I am reading is that in 1922, the body was re-designed with a windshield that slanted back. It was not until around August 1923 that the high radiators came in.
Verne

For Verne,

That is way I understand it also -- and it is easy to get the dates mixed up with what happened when -- 15,000,000 Ts and lots of changes. Oh, and Canada production switched to a slightly different (both window panes open) slant windshield in 1920 model year. And any of those windshields will bolt onto any 1915-1925 body -- but the top would not necessarily fit with the windshield correctly if they swapped from straight to slant or the other way either.

For Fred,

Going with the year (model year) of the body makes a lot of sense. And if someone replaces the engine at a later date they may even look for a block that would be the correct year. Especially if they are having the engine rebuilt -- the cost of the block is small compared to the cost of the engine rebuild.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

When discussing body variations, particularly Black Rad cars, it's important to state either US-T OR
Canadian manufacture.My late 1923 Walkerville Ontario-built coupe, produced on 24 July 1923, has a high rad with the lower "apron" fitted BUT has the early-style coupe body, with the rear-hinged doors.(I refuse to used the term "suicide" doors) and the afterthought trunk.Multi other minor differences as well.

Phil Mino's pictures are one answer to Dave Conwill's question. Another way of measuring if you find a loose radiator shell is from the bottom of the shell to the top. With the shell standing on the floor, the top of a low shell (at the hole) will be a little over 19 inches above the floor. The top of a high shell will be a little under 22 inches.

As for model years, I believe Ford started them with vehicles made in August. A car made in July 1923 is a 1923, and one made in August is a 1924. I assume the same would apply to trucks.

From the encyclopedia, "DASHBOARD(Firewall): Wood, fitted outside the front cowl, hidden by the metal cowl weather strip. In early 1923 a new metal firewall replaced the wood one for a short time (both types being used for a time), then in August a new larger metal firewall was used to match the larger hood."

My TT had the low steel firewall in it' low radiator and Jan. 23 on the front axle.