New-Old 1913 T Speedster in the family

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2009: New-Old 1913 T Speedster in the family
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 11:35 am:

The reason for the Kingston carburetor question down below was that our son Bill, just got a Speedster with one on it.

I bought the Speedster last weekend but he and Cindy stole it from me on Monday. It has a real 1913 engine in it with a DB axle and tapered springs. It also has a brand new Brassworks radiator and an aluminum three speed Warford and lettered pedals. It has an all brass Kingston L4 mounted and an NH in a box. We were wondering which carburetor to use. Yes it has a Bosch DU4 magneto and we will add Rocky Mountain brakes before we go for a drive. He has like-new all brass side and tail lamps and will get the head lights and return those 1915 electrics I loaned him. He knows that the lamps should be black and brass but he is a showman.

I have enclosed some pictures of the car.




Bill's TBill's T SpeedsterTfloor


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 03:42 pm:

Frank,Is there a name on the latch of the tool box on the back??Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 10:55 am:

Looks like a neat car!!! I'll make a guess as to the latch manufacturer...Corbin.
Verne


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman, Hays KS on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 12:28 pm:

You west coast guys have all the luck. Even still being able to drive this late in the year. Here its close to freezing and the frost is still on the ground.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 12:49 pm:

Jerome, what is frost and What does it look like ?


We are still boating at 7000 feet in sunny California.


K T


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By DAREL J. LEIPOLD on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 02:49 pm:

Here is Minnesota this morning. No, it is not my home. It is the former chicken coupe now filled with floor lamps from the 1920s.
MN


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Gelfer on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 03:44 pm:

It was 28 here in Milwaukee on Sunday morn. That didn't stop me from taking a BREEZY ride along Lake Michigan in the afternoon in my 1912 runabout. Heck, it was all the way up to 42 degrees. yes, it was cold, but I was grinning from ear to ear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Saturday, November 21, 2009 - 01:55 am:

Here's an updated photo
T


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 01:39 am:

Here's a shot of the Bosch DU4 Mag being tested and later replaced by a "hotter" one. We are getting very close to our first attempt to fire this old car up! image{mag}


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 01:40 am:

image {mag}


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 01:55 am:

I'll try again
mag


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 02:07 am:

4th try
/image{mag}


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 03:32 am:

5th try
mag


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 03:59 am:

OK, that only took two hours! I'll now try the second photo.
mag2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 08:35 am:

Arlington, VA, here.

It's past your bedtime, Bill, and I'm just having my first coffee. We're on a Smithsonian trip.

Neat car. Are you going to tart it all up like the red one you had?

Hmm, with that mag, you don't need any other electrical, except for lights, and LED tail and stop you could run off flashlight batteries.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 11:36 am:

Bill,Is there a name on the brass hasp of the tool box?? Nice looking T!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 01:08 pm:

Ralph: I bought the Halogen "Burners" so I'll need to hide a decent 12v to run them.
Bud: The lock is a Hayes. I need to get a key for it.
lock


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 01:17 pm:

Thanks Bill!!,I have one just like it on the running board of our 14 ! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Friday, December 04, 2009 - 02:15 pm:

The picture of the magneto tester shows the one I made in an evening from a sketch about the size of a postage stamp in the 1918 Dyke's manual. You can run the screws up and down to get the desired gap for the plugs you will be using and it is fun to see the sparks jump in a pattern. We test run the magnetos on a bench with a piece of rubber tubing coupled to the front of the magneto and a 1/2 inch drill. Some of the magnetos run clockwise and some go counterclockwise depending on the point rubbing block and the half inch drill has a reverse on it so it is easy to hook up for testing.

Bill, Dave, and I tested ten magnetos in less than two hours and would have been quicker if Bill hadn't cleaned each one up first, but then he is neat and there is nothing wrong with that. Now he has two good ones out of ten and eight clean ones that don't work. There is a leather disk coupler on most of the magnetos and none are fitted with Oldham couplers as my 1912 Buick had. The leather is old and cracks when touched so must be replaced.

Bill purchased a Chrysler rubber steering shaft coupler which was too thick so we cut it to half thickness with a serrated bread knife and now we have two couplers. Some magneto drives go where the generator fits but the older ones have a gear train and rotate in the opposite direction so you have to plan ahead.


We believe that we can make several of them work. We have a magnet charger that I borrowed from my sister. The Dyke's manual states that each magnet should be able to lift 15 pounds on a fully charged magneto and of the ones we tested from the dead megnetos it took two of them to lift five pounds.

Does anyone have and tooling or such for Bosch magnetos ? we have eight to rebuild. Testing for open circuits and shorts is easy but we would like to know if there is any special tooling, Thanks, Frank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 02:39 am:

We tried our first test run today. Unfortunately, we only got one foot before the left rear parking brake started making all kinds of clicking noises. It appears that the aftermarket lined brake band is kinked.
test


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Sunday, December 06, 2009 - 02:47 am:

Here's the bent brake.
brake


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Friday, December 18, 2009 - 03:03 am:

Here's another update on my 1913 Speedster.
After several attempts, we believe that we have worked out the "bugs" in the system. The water pump has been removed, the left parking brake has been replaced and the Bosch DU4 Mag is now apparently timed properly. (We hope)
Tomorrow we try again. The goal is to have a running car for the So Cal HCCA Holiday Motoring Excursion.
z


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 01:46 am:

We tried again to make it go. As it turned out, we had the Mag 180 degrees off. That explained the backfiring. Now we have it timed correctly but are just getting a few puf pufs. It is very rich with raw gas in the cylinders. Tomorrow, we're going to try more adjustments & maybe even swap out the Kingston carb for one of the Holley NH's that we have in the parts bin. It's in bed for the night.
v


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 02:14 am:

Good to find the mag is good. Have you tried starting ether?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 02:58 am:

The bearings are so tight on this fresh engine that we have to pull it on a rope. The pull on the crank is over 50 pounds and hand cranking is out of the question when you don't know the timing because Henry hid t.d.c. very well. The old Kingston is not a happy camper and I think a good Stromberg 97 would fix it but then we couldn't go on the big run with it even though it is a real 1913. That was little bit was added just for Gary Bausch who still thinks I have hydraulic brakes on my car. t


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 03:04 am:

Ralph: We have been towing it with a rope. It has gone around the block a few times & once we got the timing squared away, all we get is puf puf puf. We haven't tried to hand crank it yet. No we haven't introduced starting fluid/ether but may try that tomorrow. I'm getting a few volunteers to come over after Donut Derelicts tomorrow & we'll give it another try. I really wanted to drive the T there but will have to settle for my '66 Honda CL160. Come on by tomorrow if you have any free time. (I moved across town so call first for directions)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 03:23 am:

Guess I was wrong, I told my brother when we left that day that if we'd have stayed another hour we'd have got to hear it run. Bill, you probably know more about this than I do but here is a question for you. Are you sure this engine has ever run on this mag or was this something that was added after the engine was rebuilt? The reason I ask is that mags can be crankshaft speed or camshaft speed and also can be built to turn in either direction. It is possible that your mag is turning half the speed it is designed for, which may be why you are getting a put, put, put instead of it starting.

Most of those mags that I have seen came off International Harvester industrial engines and were designed to run at crankshaft speed as they ran on a gear that engaged the camshaft gear using a gear the same size as the crankshaft gear. Some of the mag drives, such as the Bosch conversion for the Fordson tractor, run at camshaft speed as they are just a 90 degree drive from the end of the cam. My Matco drive for my speedster has to run at camshaft speed and it had a DU4 with it when I got it, although it wasn't mounted so I don't know if it was the correct mag or not.

If it won't start you might want to check that. I want to hear it run.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 08:47 am:

Really neat RIDE! I like it.I would drop 4 coils in the box and hook up a battery and drive the puppy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 09:34 am:

If you look at the pictures Mack,it seems a little more complicated than that.Those International mags ran at crankshaft speed but the rotor and points were geared down to half speed.Don't rush Bill you have a nice speedster so take your time to get it right.Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 09:55 pm:

We're making progress:
I had my friends Gary & Ralph (RD Ricks) helping today.
c


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 10:10 pm:

That's Ralph on the left. He's holding on to the magneto tester that my Dad made, A brave man he is!
m


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan McEachern on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 10:16 pm:

To Stan- your Matco output shaft turns at crankshaft speed as does the Bosch drive on Bill's speedster shown here. All DU4 mags run at crankshaft speed. But if you are swapping them, they can be setup for clockwise or counter clockwise rotation. To change the rotation, you need to do two things- retime the rotor for cw or ccw rotation- there are timing marks on the armature gear and the rotor gear and you need the correct point set- they are also marked cw or ccw.
Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 10:32 pm:

We actually had the car running today (sort of).
After properly timing the mag (it runs counter clockwise from the shaft end), we played with the mixture on the Kingston carb. We got it to fire at 1/3 opening on the mixture. The car will run as long as it is pulled. If I try to go into neutral, it will immediately stall. There is a lot of resistance (tight mains, non-seated rings, etc.) which won't allow the engine to continue to fire without help. In the photo, we were testing the mag and determined that we may have some intermittant issues with ignition as well. Plug #2 wasn't firing (wet & clean) Plugs 1,3,4 all had carbon from firing. It has become easier to hand crank since we have now pulled it approximately one mile via tow strap. With a little more break-in and confirmation that the Bosch DU4 is really working at all rpms, we just may have a running car soon. Of course, we still are not convinced that the carb is working correctly, but will try things one at a time until we get it fixed. Only one week away from the Holiday Motoring Excursion. Time is running out...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 12:51 am:

For the record: I got the car to start by hand crank this evening. This is a first! It ran for about a minute before it died. We're going to do some adjustments tomorrow & get it dialed in. It sounded real good & was running on all four. I guess we finally got that Bosch DU4 mag figured out! Merry Christmas 2009. I'll always remember the date that my T started up for the first time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 07:49 pm:

Update: I drove the car! It had fuel delivery issues & we determined that the gas tank sediment was restricting fuel flow. That's why it would stall after running for about one minute. I did get to drive in low & high gear and my Warford seems to jump out of direct drive. I'm stuck with under or over drive for now. The next step will be properly cleaning the gas tank & we should have a drivable car.
We won't be able to drive it in tomorrow's run but made great progress today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman, Hays KS on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 01:18 am:

Thumbs Up Bill. Too cold to work on T stuff here. Would love to got on the Holiday tour out your way someday. J


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 02:12 pm:

Our son Bill grinning while working on the car after driving it for over a mile.




bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 08:42 pm:

One happy camper.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Thursday, December 31, 2009 - 11:57 pm:

The project continues...
We fabricated the advance/retard linkage for the Bosch Mag. we can now adjust the spark from the driver's seat! We still are having fuel delivery problems. I'm going to try the Kingston carb again & then may have to resort to "borrowed" working carbs to get thsi right. We are so close to having a real car.
x


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Friday, January 01, 2010 - 12:06 am:

I should mention that my dad (Frank Harris) and Humble Howard Genrich spent about four hours today on the '13. We got the Warford sorted out & mag linkage working. After a few trial runs, we determined that we are running way too rich. Even with the mixture screw turned all the way in, we're getting black smoke. The Holley NH carb may be a bit tired. That's why I'm going back to the Kingston for a test.
Stay tuned...


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