Tying down my Hogshead

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2009: Tying down my Hogshead
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Naquin on Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 03:57 pm:

Last week we put a Texas T water pump on the nice '23 Touring I bought this summer (older restoration, but thorough). On a road test of the new part, the old cotton clutch band finally gave out. So we ordered kevlar bands, and proceeded to remove the hogshead- both so we could more easily install the bands and to get a close up look at a roughly-running magneto.

To make a long story a little longer, all the insulation is gone from the magneto coils, it has shorts in it, and the little triangular button was split in two. We gorilla glued the button back together, cleaned some trash off the visible coils, and sprayed insulating spray on the coils. We'll probably pull the engine in a year and replace the magneto, starter drive, and ring gear- but the engine runs quite well enough and there are other things to fix to keep us busy for now.

OK- my question is this: In removing the hogshead, which was duly fastened down with cotter pins- I noticed that many of the bolts were pretty loose- even though they had pins holding the nuts on. So I was wondering if I should put lock washers on the sucker. But lock washers AND cotter pins would be sort of like wearing a belt AND suspenders...so what's the best solution?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 05:43 pm:

If you want to look authentic, you need the cotter pins, but if you want to be practical, you can use lock washers. the later cars didn't use the cotter pins. They should all be tight. I would think, maybe the gasket had shrunk over the years but not that the nuts loosened with the cotter pins. Whoever installed it last did not tighten completely.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Naquin on Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 05:46 pm:

When did they leave off with the cotter pins, Norm?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, November 22, 2009 - 08:13 pm:

?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 01:42 am:

William-
I like to use self locking nuts. They have a nylon (?) insert in them. They kinda look like a castle nut without the slots.
nut


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 08:37 am:

From Bruce's encyclopedia:
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc25.htm
1925 FEB 2 Acc. 94, "Bolts, Nuts, etc." folder, Ford Archives
Letter from W.C. Klann to Martin and Howard:
"On Dec. 2nd, 1924 Mr. Martin and Mr.. Galamb O.K.'d building motors with no cotter keys in the bolts but using lock washers instead in the crankcase, transmission cover and cylinder block assembly only. Why not put this on the blue print? Please advise."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 11:10 am:

Here is a scan from the Service Bulletin, you can plainly see the hogshead bolt does not have a castellated nut, lock washers were in use when this photo was taken.

pic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 11:19 am:

Is that a photo or a good techinical illustration? That could have been a used car in a service department somewhere. If you look close, it looks like even though that is a plain nut, the bolt still has a hole thru the end for a cotter pin...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 11:07 pm:

Adam

Here is another view, scan from original Service Bulletin, 1925. Pretty clear that no cotter pins are in those nuts. Maybe had drilled bolts, but by this time lock washers were advantage on the assembly line and certainly for after sales service....I like 'em on my '26 and '27 T's !

pic

No cotters to mess with :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 03:25 pm:

I'm still sort of skeptical about that. It is a drawing, not a photo... Is it possible that regular nuts took less time to illustrate than castle nuts??? Don't get me wrong though... I know service departments usually put them back together with lock washers instead of cotter pins and it is the way I prefer to do it too.
Seeing the cost breakdown records for the 1925 or 1926 or 1927 model years would be the only way to know for sure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 08:55 pm:

Adam

Would you take the Feb 2 1925 Ford archived documents for instance? Seems like lock washers on motors and hogshead after Dec 2, 1924....

"1925"


"JAN 6 Acc. 1701, Model T Releases, Ford Archives
Specified use of 17" steering wheel on all chassis instead of those with 21 by 4.40 tires"


"FEB 2 Acc. 94, "Bolts, Nuts, etc." folder, Ford Archives
Letter from W.C. Klann to Martin and Howard:
"On Dec. 2nd, 1924 Mr. Martin and Mr.. Galamb O.K.'d building motors with no cotter keys in the bolts but using lock washers instead in the crankcase, transmission cover and cylinder block assembly only. Why not put this on the blue print? Please advise."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Mills on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 09:32 pm:

My 27 had cotter pins and I dont think it had ever been apart before.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 09:40 pm:

Well, that's the fun of Model T...

Here is a pic of my Nov '25 mfg '26 pickup engine.

pic

Kinda greasy still, but there were lockwashers under those hex nuts....that's my take..:-)

Sure is easy to tighten up those bolts using lockwashers too...


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