What rims fit what wheels?

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2009: What rims fit what wheels?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 01:23 pm:

I picked up some demountable wood wheels at a swap meet this weekend. I don't yet know if they are Ford or Hayes or Kelsey, or what they are or if they are all even the same. When I get to looking for rims to put on them, do I need to be careful what I get? Or will all demountable rims fit all wheels? If there is a difference, what do I need to look for to identify them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 02:33 pm:

Some of them sort of fit okay across brands, but for best results it should be Kelsey on Kelsey, Hayes on Hayes, Ford on Ford etc. Most important is do not mix the early oddity where the lugs are separate pieces from the rim. The wheels are common. The rims and lugs are not. And nothing cross fits with the more common T type wheels and rims.

W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 02:42 pm:

What kind of T do you plan to use these rims on? I notice in the picture of your truck, you have 6 lugs on the rear wheels. The standard Ford cars have 30x3 1/2 de mountables on all but the latest models starting in 1925, you could get "balloon" tires which were 4:40-21. The rims for the balloon tires were smaller and the wheels were smaller. I have found several types of de-mountable rims for each size. The 30x3 1/2 rims must match the wheels or they won't fit. Most of the 21" types are interchangeable with each other. You will need to try them on your felloe and see if the mate with it and that the bolts and air valves line up. It's sometimes hard to tell without trying them on.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 03:14 pm:

Sorry, I should have put that. They are for the 23" 30 x 3-1/2 demountables like the ones on the front of my truck. At least I hope they are. I was going to use them for a speedster. You got me wondering now. I will have to make sure they are not for 21" demountables. I sure hope not.

Thanks,

Hal


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Shelton on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 04:18 pm:

Hal,

went through this a while back and learned a little. I don't claim to be an expert as I don't think one has yet to emerge on wheels, but here is what I know:

- Kelsey rims are loose lug. The lugs use a sqaure souldered nut and have no rounded depression in them (in the lugs). They also have a locating lug that comes out 90 degrees to the inside of the rim and runs through a slot in the fellow. One of the four lug bolts pass through the end of this lug - this prevents the rim from slipping. The inside face of the felloe as 4 bumps made for the lugs to rest against.

- Ford made two types of loose lugs rims, supposedly in a brief period around 22/23. These have no locating lug but use instead a throat around the valve stem. This throat fits into sort of a cup in the felloe. This arrangement keeps the rim from spinning. These "cupped" wheels carry notches in the felloes just like (best I can tell) those in wheels made to accept Hayes fixed-lug rims. Some of these felloes are squared off on the edges, some are rounded off. There are no bumps on the inside felloe face for the lugs to rest on. Key characteristic of these wheels is the cup in the felloe to hold the rim's valve stem throat. The lugs for these rims come in two styles: 1 looks much like a Kelsey lug but is a bit larger than the Kelsey lug and takes the standard lug nut. The other goes with a rounded face rim and has the lug nut integral to the lug. It has a face with a radius in it to fit the rounded face of the rim where they meet. I am told firestone offered rims/wheels much like these ford Loose lug rims but my digging around would seem to indicate Firestone rims/wheels used 5, not 4 lugs.

- Hayes (and others?) fixed lug rims go on wheels with notches cut in the felloes to take the lugs. In this way they are prevented from spinning on the wheel. I am not certain but believe the Ford "cupped" wheels discussed above will take these same Hayes rims but do not have one to try on my wheels. I have the cupped wheels and loose lugs Ford rims all the way around my car.

I will upload pictures for all I have when I have some time to figure the new system out.

Hope this helps. Again, I offer the above as what I have learned so far. I am not claiming it all as gospel.

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 05:59 pm:

If the wheels have 5 lugs, they are Firestone and they have a different rim too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Fry on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 07:04 pm:

6 loose lug by Firestone


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Fry on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 07:06 pm:

6 loose lug by Firestone


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Fry on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 07:18 pm:

Above picture shows Firestone loose lugs that are used to mount the rim on felloe's that might be Firestone. I cannot see any maker name on the felloe's or rims. Odd set up on my 26 Tudor (I think?)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 07:41 pm:

Hal 21 in rims are split rims w/ either latchs, or bolts to hold them together, 30 x 3 1/2 rims are solid clincher rims, however I have some accy split 30 x 3 1/2 rims for straight sided tires?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Shelton on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 07:58 pm:

Chart depicting rim types - courtesy of Hap on this site.

file

Kelsey Rim - note the locating lug

file

Ford 2845C (in front) and 2845D (3 behind) Rims

2845C rim mounted. Note integral nut and lug fitting into notch.

file

Lug for use with 2845D Rim

file

Cupped and non-cupped wheels

file

Hayes rims not shown.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Shelton on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 08:03 pm:

Chart depicting rim types - courtesy of Hap on this site.

file

Kelsey Rim - note the locating lug

file

Ford 2845C (in front) and 2845D (3 behind) Rims

file

2845C rim mounted. Note integral nut and lug fitting into notch.

file

Lug for use with 2845D Rim

file

Cupped and non-cupped wheels

file

Hayes rims not shown.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Shelton on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 08:09 pm:

Tried to upload but now it says my files are too large. If anyone wants these, email and I will send.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 08:18 pm:

Steve,

If you send me the ones you are wanting to post, I'll gladly hang them on there. I'm 99% sure the first one would be the one shown below from the Jan 1924 Service Bulletin:

1

and the words that went with that Jan 1924 bulletin:

2

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker l915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 08:23 pm:

Hopefully a smaller version of the 5 different rims (and there were some others -- but these were addressed in the bulletin)

1

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker l915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Shelton on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 08:45 pm:

Hap,

Shot - Over.

Hopefully the round gets to you. Two others on the net should be getting it with you.

I do want to complete research on this and get a comphrehensive guide published and confirm some of my suspecions in the process.

so many rims...so little time...

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 10:43 pm:

Ed,

I suspect those six lug 21 inch wheels are an accessory of some sort or possibly the felloe from another car mated to the Model T Hub when it was respoked. Does anyone know of Ford offering a “6-lug” demountable rim? I would think based on the extra cost of two additional lugs, two additional bolts, and the holes drilled for them Ford would not use that if he could accomplish the same thing with only 4 lugs/bolts. Please take a look at the Firestone six lug accessory nos 21 inch wheels (no hubs), felloes, and rims at: http://www.modelthaven.com/pfw.html and let us know if those appear to be the same or not.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker l915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Monday, November 23, 2009 - 10:51 pm:

The good news many parts for the Model T are interchangeable and will fit more than one year and more than one way etc. In many cases the parts fit and function great. A demountable wheel will fit the earlier non-demountable cars and it makes it a lot easier to change the flat on a tour or if you drive the car a lot. In some cases the parts fit fine but the function is not acceptable such as installing the ring gear on the wrong side of the pinion gear. It fits fine but now you have two speeds in reverse and only one very slow speed forward. In that case it is not dangerous – and we gain a little more experience in correcting the problem we just created. But in other cases such as installing the front spring perches incorrectly it can lead to loss of control and a possible accident– even though you used Ford parts and they seemed to fit ok. In the case of the various demountable rims I have asked if it is safe to run the 30 x 3 1/2 “Is it Safe to use a Loose Lug Kelsey or Ford clincher rim on a Hayes Wheel Felloe?” and while there was a great discussion about the Firestone lose lug clincher rims and felloes [
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/92314.html ]
there really wasn’t and answer about using the Kelsey, Firestone, or Ford lose lug rim on the Hayes felloe or the Hayes Rim on the lose lug felloe. Ford Clearly said it was NOT safe to mix and match the rims and felloes in the Jan 1924 Service Bulletin above. And Peter Kable had some excellent illustrations of why the rims do not fit properly from one company to the next at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/39258.html and see also the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/33266.html ]

Steve’s e-mail just arrived –Thank you Steve! But I will need to work on making it smaller so I can post it and I need to quit for the night. Steve – I think you are off to a great start on a good summary. And hopefully we will be able to gather some confirmation and if needed some corrections.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker l915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Leon Parker on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 12:46 am:

Hap. I have two of the 21" firestone six lug wheels with front hubs. I have no pictures of them at this time. I can take some pictures Tuesday if anybody needs to see them. Leon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 02:07 am:

Leon,
Picture of the rim latch holding the ends together would be the most informative.
Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 02:16 am:

Ed Fry,
Picture of the latch on your rims may also be illuminating.
Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 12:59 pm:

Thanks guys! You wouldn't have a handy picture file of the wheels would you?

Thanks again,

Hal Davis
Lyons, GA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Fry on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 09:49 pm:

Steve,
Got your email and PDF attachment. Thanks for sharing the very interesting info. Please keep the research going.

Hap,
Thanks for the link to the Model T Haven pictures. Those 6 lug wheels are a very close match (if not perfect) to what I have on the 26 Tudor.

Layden,
I will take some close up pictures of the latch and post to the forum later this week.

Happy T-day to all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 11:38 pm:

Well once again a short question appears not to have a simple answer. Please note we are discussing the 30 x 3 1/2 demountable clincher wheels and rims that came new on Fords starting in 1919 and not the later 21 inch balloon wheels and rims. Nor are we trying to address the accessory wheels in this posting – that is a good discussion but there is no end to that one. And yes if you have some accessory wheel information - please start a new posting and/or e-mail the information to me.

Please remember that most of us are learning this as we go along since we do not have an original car with the original wheels and rims for each type of wheel and rim that was offered from the factory. By the way – if anyone does have such an original car – please let us know what type of wheels and rims it came with and the year and type of car. And yes, we realize one or more of the wheels or rims could have been replaced over the years but it hopefully is a better place to start than with rims and wheels obtained from different locations.

Hal, recommend you examine your newly purchased 30 x 3 1/2 clincher wheels and take some pictures and post them. Please show the inside part of the valve stem area so we can tell if they have what we have been calling a “locator cup” for a metal lug around the valve stem to fit into or not. Also please show the area where the lug bolts go through the rim – is it notched? And please show the profile of the felloe. If all the wheels are the same – great, just post pictures of the same wheel. If they are different post pictures and be sure to tell us which wheel is which if they all look similar (i.e. black paint etc.) That should help with the identification. Note you could do the same with your TT front demountable clincher. From your picture on the forum profile it looks like you have square shaped lugs which normally means you have removable lugs. Both Kelsey and Firestone used a square looking removable lug and other brands may have also.

Caution: Prior to a little after Mar 1924 the wheels and rims were NOT all safely interchangeable. The Ford Service Bulletin for May 15, 1920 warns that the Kelsey and the Hayes wheels were both being used as original equipment but that the parts are NOT interchangeable. Yes, you could put them on the wrong wheel etc. but Ford said NOT to do that. If it had been ok to do that – I believe Ford would have supported that idea as it would have reduced the parts inventory required. Below is the first sentence taken from the May 15, 1920 Ford Service Bulletin:

1

Note shortly after Mar 1924 Ford did have all his wheel and rim makers produce the same type parts so they would interchange. So a car produced in May 1924 could have three different wheel makers and four different rim makers with the rims able to fit on any wheel. Ref: the Mar 7, 1924 letter to Ford Branches found at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels on Bruce McCalley’s on line encyclopedia. But for wheels and rims produced prior to that date – they still maintained a stock of non-interchangeable wheel and rim parts so customers could obtain the proper rim, lugs, lug nuts, bolts, and wheels for their cars.

Shortly after Mar 7, 1924 all the wheels and rims were produced to fit the same no matter who made them and they were all modeled after the Ford 2845B with four fixed lugs which was interchangeable with the earlier Hayes 2845B fixed lug rim. and associated wheel. The profile of that rim from the service bulletin is shown below:

2


Because Hayes had already been supplying Ford with wheels and rims since 1919 and since all wheels and rims were made by all Ford suppliers to be compatible with the Hayes fixed lug rim and wheel – it is the most common style. And shortly after Mar 1924 the wheels (felloe band) by Kelsey, Ford, Hayes, or Motor Wheel. And the rim could have been made by Hayes, Kelsey, Motor Wheel, or Firestone [again : the Mar 7, 1924 letter to Ford Branches found at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels ] It also is the style that is currently be reproduced and is available from the vendors.

From the posting “Is it Safe to use a Loose Lug Kelsey or Ford clincher rim on a Hayes Wheel Felloe?” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/92314.html I have taken the information below that discusses the Hayes rims and wheels which would be similar to the Ford 2845 B rims and felloes which would be like all of them shortly after May 7, 1924. Thanks to Peter Kable who posted:

Here are some photo's of Hayes rim and felloe

3

4

5


The rim has the lug fixed to it. You will note its an angle piece which fits into the felloe notch. The lug holds the rim as well as takes the driving/ braking forces.

Peter continued further down in that posting with: There are a few different types of Hayes profiles for the felloes. Seems there were changes to make them easier or cheaper.

6

A has the outer edge turned out B has it turned in and C has none so they probably reasoned that was strong enough.

Back to Haps question whatever felloes and rims you have you need to get three things right. Some combinations don't come together very well.

If you look at the last sketch the felloe should touch at point A and B (front and back onto the rim and the ridge on the rim).In some cases it only touches on one or none if you use a Hayes rim on a different felloe. If you can get a piece of paper to grab at points around the rim between A and B you should have a strong safe wheel.

You also need to have in place some method of drive between the felloe and rim besides friction. such as a saddle over one of the bolts or the round tube around the valve or the rim lugs being part of the rim not separate. If those lugs are loose ones some other method has to be in place.

Obviously if there is no mechanical locating between the rim and felloe its possible for the rim to move around the wheel and rip out the valve.

And further down Peter continues: Probably should mention the following also

There are different felloe thicknesses. One is wider making the spokes shorter and placing the bolt holes closer together The distance between the holes for the rims is reduced so if you have the wrong rims the lugs don't line up with the bolts

7


A is the thin earlier one B is the later wider one this puts the holes at a different dia from the other. So when you miss match the bolts either are too close to the outer edge of the hole or too close to the inner edge (as in dia C) making it hard to get the tapered nuts to bind equally around the countersink of the fixed lugs hole

++++++++ End Peter Kable’s input to the previous thread on Hayes rims and felloes.+++

In that same thread Scott posted some helpful information on where to look for the “H” and/or “Hayes” on the felloe as well as a difference in spoke length:

FYI I just finished respoking a set of 4 Hayes wheels with Felloe profile "B" in Peter's response. Immediately opposite the valve stem hole, on the outside, there was "H" stamped with "pat'd" above it and Ju?? xx, 192? under it. This felloe had 4 depressions (clearly factory made) where the mounting bolts went for the rim, acting as a sloppy lock mechanism for the welded, raised lugs on the rims. These felloes were lighter in cross section and a little larger in ID (1/16"), and took "Hayes" type spokes that are new to market by some suppliers. I got the first batch of these spokes that Langs offered and they worked great. The "Ford" spokes I tried were actually loose.

Rebuilt a couple wheels a year ago, profile "C" which had simple word Hayes stamped inside the Felloe. These felloes had a clearly defined notch where the welded, raised lugs on the rim located. These felloes were heavier in cross section, a little smaller ID, and took "Ford" length spokes.

Note the fixed lug Hayes & Ford rims used the readily available from the vendors lug nut that has the taper on it to fit into the taper of the fixed lug on the rim.

If others could please add some additional photos of the Hayes felloes and Hayes rims or the 1925 and later 30 x 3 1/2 which it should not matter which company produced the wheel or rim – that would be great. Tomorrow we will post additional information on Kelsey and Firestone. We have NO pictures about the Motor Wheel or Cleveland brands.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Leon Parker on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 12:30 am:

Firestone six lug rim
image{firestone}
image{firestone}
image{firestone}
image{firestone}
image{firestone}
image{firestone}
image{firestone}
image{firestone}
image{firestone}


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Leon Parker on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 12:35 am:

Try that again.
firestone
firestone
firestone
firestone
firestone
firestone
firestone
firestone
firestone


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Shelton on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 01:48 pm:

Ok. Will add to my wheel/rim write up. These are good pics. What this tells us is:

1. Firestone accesory wheel/rims use six lugs
2. The lugs are loose
3. The lugs are most definately unique to Firestone

The nuts by the way APPEAR to look just like the ones used on a Kelsey loose-lug.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 02:10 pm:

Leon,
Your 21" wheels/rims are Firestone "A", if the width between the beads is 2 1/4" then these were originally sold as aftermarket replacement wheel/ rim sets. If the width is wider at 2 5/8" then they came as original equipment on:
Apperson 6 1925
Cleveland 31,43 1926
Elcar part of production 1925
Franklin all 1925-26
and sold as aftermarket relacement sets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Leon Parker on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 06:07 pm:

Layden
The firestone rims in the pictures are 2 1/4" between the beads. They have the 26-27 brake drums. If anyone could use them I would like to trade them for two 20" TT rear wheels and rims with lock rings(complete). They would have to be as good as the Firestones I have. No junk. I will have them at Chickasha. Leon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 06:15 pm:

Here you go, guys. Sorry it took me so long. We've been out of town for the holidays. I'm just gonna post four pics. I have a third wheel, but it is just like the front I'm posting here. I do not see any markings or names, but I have not tried to clean them up. Something might show up later. The valve stem hole is just a hole. One has a second hole someone has drilled in it to make something else fit I suppose. There are no notches or anything like that. Tell me what you think I have here.

wheel1
wheel2
wheel3
wheel4


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard G Goelz on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 07:08 pm:

It looks like a 21"/23' felloe for a 21" rim, the other hole would be to fit a Chevrolet.
Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 07:29 pm:

Rick,

I think you are right. I never considered that they may be 21" demountable. I just assumed they were for the 30 x 3-1/2. I just measured them and they measure right at 21" OD. I went out to the shop and measured the fronts on my TT. They are over 22". Cant get a good measurement straight across the center, as they are on the spindle. Are rims gonna be hard to find for these?

I forgot to mention my truck in the earlier post. Someone had asked what was on there. They are 30 x 3-1/2 demountable and the lugs are welded to the rim, not the loose style. I'll have to look and see if there are any markings on them to distinguish the brand.


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration