1915 Firewall Mounting hood alignment

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2009: 1915 Firewall Mounting hood alignment
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Theodore Harbourt on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 06:03 pm:

We already mounted the radiator which rests on two little peices of leather. We have the rod which goes from the radiator to the firewall all lined up and level. We trimmed the wood firewall a little bit so the hood former will fit on it and have it clamped in position. The question is when we fit the hood on there is a gap between the frame and where the fender will go and the bottom of the hood. It looks like a peice of wood in the macs catalogue called a hood shelve. Is there suposed to be a peice of sheet metal that goes there too? How thick is this wood can I make my own? Also from the pictures we think the firewall sits too high. Should the hood be level from radiator to firewall or should it rise slightyl towards the firewall? I will include pictures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Theodore Harbourt on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 06:06 pm:

how do I add a picture?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Theodore Harbourt on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 06:10 pm:

I put them on flickr here are the links



http://www.flickr.com/photos/43567033@N05/4139455242/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/43567033@N05/4139454418/in/photostream/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 06:17 pm:

That link didn't work Theodore.
Here's how I input pictures
\image {}
The slash is a backslash right over the enter key. The brackets are next to it using the shift key. Leave no space between image and the brackets. Put the name of your picture inside the brackets using jpeg resolution 72.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Theodore Harbourt on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 06:33 pm:

I still see no place to upload a picture, copy and paste the enitire flickr link into your browser please sorry about all of this folks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harry A. Daw on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 06:59 pm:

Here is the second photo4139


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harry A. Daw on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 07:06 pm:

Hopefully here is the first picture8025


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 07:15 pm:

Theodore.

So far looking good....

There is a wood hood shelf on the 15's. It sits between the frame and the hood.

This clip shows a later one, but other than being wood, the 15 is quite similar

test


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harry A. Daw on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 07:19 pm:

George is correct on the wood piece. My 15 roadster have the wood pieces.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Friday, November 27, 2009 - 08:58 pm:

The hood shelf looks like this:
shelf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 01:11 am:

If the leather pads that you used under the radiator were thin leather with symetical hole pattern such that they could have been turned over without affecting their placement, you probably installed the wrong pads. Unfortunately the most common reproduction pads are way thinner than originals which were specified to be rather thick leather and punched with a pattern that was NOT centered on the pad. The correct pads cover the entire end of the frame and the rivet heads too. The thin leather pads (less than 1/8" thick typically) cause the hood to stoop at the front and also cause the heads of the frame rivets to dimple the underside of the radiator apron in front and behind the mounting stud location. Eventually you will see the heads of those frame rivets have dented the radiator mounting apron from below. What is not visible in the above picture of the wood hood shelves is that the underside of the shelf at the rearmost end is relieved to allow the end of the shelf to somewhat cover the head of the bolt that holds the firewall-to-frame bracket in place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Norton on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 03:59 am:

Ted, the brass radiator nut http://www.modeltford.com/item/3931.aspx can look quite good left unpainted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 06:38 pm:

Theodore -- Here is a pic of my 15's hood. As you can see, there is a space between the hood and the wooden shelf. (The wood shelf was painted black originally.) Mine is set up with the correct thickness leather pads at the radiator. These pads are available from Fun Projects, and the space below the hood is uniform from front to back.

hood

tE rear of my shelf was notched around the bolt head, but John Regan said above that the shelf was supposed ti be relieved on the underside instead of notched. I tend to believe him, since he gets such information from Ford's original drawings.

shelf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 06:42 pm:

Where is my proofreader when I need him? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Theodore Harbourt on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 07:21 pm:

Thank you very much guys.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Saturday, November 28, 2009 - 10:39 pm:

Theodore,

I don’t have access to my 1915 so I cannot go out and look at it. But I have a couple of questions. In the picture below inside the red circle is that your wood dash (wood firewall) of your car showing below the hood former and resting on the frame?

1

I tried to find a photo of that area, but the best I found is shown below:

2

I am wondering if some of the slant your hood has might be the result of your dash not being fitted all the way into the hood former? Or is it possible the dash is a little too tall? Mike, Keith or someone with a car to look at would you let us know if that wooden dash should be showing there where the red circle is in my first picture?

I believe raising the radiator with the proper size pad will help, but I wanted to encourage you to take a look at the hood former to dash fit also. From a May 5, 2005 posting that John Regan did, the 1915-16 hood former was designed to take approximately an 11/16 thick (.677/.697) dash. Initially Ford had a 1/16 inch rabbet around the edge of the dash but later switched to using the 11/16 thick dash all over. So if you dash is 3/4 plywood – it maybe causing some of the misalignment.

No one has mentioned it, but we are assuming you have already checked and ensured the car’s frame is straight.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 12:28 pm:

1915/1916 dash is one of the hardest to make correctly since it has not only an angled edge on top and sides but also 2 different radii on the front and back edge of that angled edge to thus make it match up with the underside of the sheet metal forming the edge of the hood former. When sliding the hood former down on the dash - make sure the main large holes end up totally centered on the sheet metal square holes for the 2 main step bolts that pass through the sheet metal and through the dash and body. This assumes these holes were properly located in the new dash. If you had to "egg" out those holes then you probably have the hood former not fully seated in place. The 3/4" dash gave way to the 11/16 dash somewhat early in 1915. I have the design change dates stashed away somewhere.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 06:50 pm:

Hap -- I have one of John's (Fun Projects) dashes which I will use on my '15 Coupelet. Since he makes them from Ford's drawings, I expect it to be correct in every respect. It measures 20-13/16" tall. I also have a nice original hood former, which measures the same height to the top of the metal. I believe the wood dash is supposed to sit directly on the frame, so the properly seated hood former would be positioned above the frame by the thickness of the steel, which is less than 1/16". This would keep the hood former from touching the frame and rubbing/squeaking.

Here is a pic of my '15 Touring, in which you can see just a bit of the dash (firewall) showing below the hood former. This is not one of John's dashes, by the way, so it is not necessarily correct.

dash


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 11:06 pm:

Mike,

Thanks for checking. Maybe Theodore will let us know about his dash and how much wood is showing below the hood former. And if his dash was made from 3/4 inch or something else. In the photo with the red circle above I would guess it is between 3/8 and 4/8 inch showing -- but without a ruler or something next to it, the picture can be misleading.

John does some great research to ensure his products fit and function great also. We are fortunate to have him supporting our hobby. I wish more folks would contact the Benson Ford Archives and obtain the factory drawings and change cards before they start producing replacement parts. In many cases it doesn’t cost any more to produce the part to Ford’s original specifications as to produce them to a reverse engineered tolerance. And yes in some cases the original drawings and change cards are not available – but for many parts they are.

Again thank you so much for checking.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

John does some great research to ensure his products fit and function great also. We are fortunate to have him supporting our hobby.

Again thank you for checking.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Sunday, November 29, 2009 - 11:14 pm:

Oops -- I should double check before posting -- sorry about the repeated lines. -- Hap


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Monday, November 30, 2009 - 12:18 am:

Mike-
That's a nice looking (correct) 1915 brass Holley G carburetor you have there...

Where did you get that 90 degree shutoff valve? Did you find it with all the correct threaded ends?

: ^ )
Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Norton on Monday, November 30, 2009 - 04:02 am:

Ted, more info on [1911] shelves: Forum 2008: Making new hood shelves - Pictorial
Not sure if exactly the same for 1915?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Monday, November 30, 2009 - 08:33 am:

Keith,

Check out the picture at Lang's part number 6055RE at: http://www.modeltford.com/item/6055RE.aspx looks very similar.

They also have an older looking version part number 6055 at: http://www.modeltford.com/item/6055.aspx which specifically says “....Replaces the right angle inlet connection (elbow) going into the carburetor with a safety shut off valve. Requires no modifications!...

Other vendors probably offer similar valves. It is great for saving gas/stopping drips. But as Ralph Ricks pointed out -- if you have a fire at your carburetor, you will also want to be sure there is another “working” shutoff further away.

For David -- thanks for reminding us about the link -- good pictures. According to Lang's Catalog -- the same hood shelf fits 1909-1916

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Monday, November 30, 2009 - 11:23 am:

Yup, it's a 6055RE. Snyder's and others have them as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Norton on Tuesday, December 01, 2009 - 09:31 pm:

In Forum2005: Another hood shelf question, Michael Campbell asked:
"Are there any bolts that bolt the fender, where it sits on the top rail, to the rail, that do NOT go through the hood shelf first?"

Could someone please answer that for a 1915 car?
I have a feeling that the fender is fastened to the chassis rail by only Engine pan and hood shelf bolt and nut set but I'm not sure.
I removed a shelf and found two modern [extra?] nuts/bolts holding the fender to the rail.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Norton on Wednesday, December 02, 2009 - 10:07 pm:

to top of list...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Norton on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 07:15 am:

I asked a senior member of the local club. Answer is yes; fastened at 2 or 3 locations along the rail.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 10:52 am:

David:

I don't own a 1915 but my son has a 1916 roadster but I have not taken the hood shelves off of that car so can't personally verify what is under them - however - I do have a factory frame drawing and there are only 4 holes total along the frame top rail that are under those wooden hood shelves and those 4 holes are for the hood clips and shelf mounting bolts so no additional fender bolts under there. The hood shelf drawing would have to show relief slots or counterbores on the underside if there were any bolts under them and the drawings for those do not show any such slots or counterbores thus I think it is safe to say that Ford T Factory did not have anything extra holding the fenders to the frame rails under the wood hood shelves. Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Norton on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 07:30 pm:

John, thanks very much for the useful information from the factory frame and hood shelf drawings.

I wonder whether extra bolts were added for Canadian export cars to Australia?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 11:06 pm:

David,

It good to see you working on your l9l5 roadster. Your question would be an excellent one to check with some of the other 1915-1916 Canadian Ford owners – both in Canada and in Australia. I would think the Canadian Fords were approximately the same for Canada or export. We know that Ford Canada did offer a Colonial Brass radiator with a larger tank for oversea areas. And we also know that they introduced the lighter tan tops for use in South Africa etc. But those were done to make the Ford "better" for the hotter climate. But Australia had a unique customs agreement that made it more economical to import only a chassis and to have the body produced locally. And many of those locally produced bodies appear to have a wider hood than the stock Model T. But they also tended to have different fenders provided by the body maker.

So a survey could be very helpful. It may show that a particular body company in Australia added the holes, or that there are only 3 or 4 chassis that are that way and we don’t know why, or that all the export chassis were that way or all the Canadian chassis were that way.

I don't think Ford Canada would have added two bolts that were not needed. I.e. if the shelf mounting bolts along with the bolts to the running boards and front fender irons worked for the USA car -- they probably would not have wanted to add to the cost of the car two extra bolts for each side etc. But asking folks to check will hopefully provide us a good answer.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker l9l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Norton on Thursday, December 03, 2009 - 11:41 pm:

Thanks for your helpful comments, Hap.

It may be a minutia but I also would be interested in the results of a survey on whether there were fender to rail bolts underneath the hood shelf on Canadian cars.


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