EE crank

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2009: EE crank
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Mills on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 07:06 pm:

How much is a EE crank worth? I hear they are more desirable than a regular crank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 08:17 pm:

Depends on the condition! Straght,All Journels 1.248,No Cracks,No Rust?? EXPENSIVE!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Bowen (Aust.) on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 09:36 pm:

Rob,
I think they are out there. I picked up two cranks about 12 months ago for around $50. One was an EE which is in my car now. I think the other is an EE also.
I was probably lucky.
Regards
Colin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Bowen (Aust.) on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 09:38 pm:

Oops I should of said that was in Australian dollars.
Regards
Colin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By RICK NELSON on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 10:03 pm:

How can you tell if it is a EE crank ?? And were they only produced in certain years? I have 3 cranks hanging in the garage maybe I should check them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bud scudder on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 11:06 pm:

There are 2 ways to tell that l know of. 1 they are marked on the throw in large letters 2. Some are stamped on the pulley END of the crank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 11:25 pm:

They are made of a better alloy that seems to be less prone to fatigue cracking that the AA alloy cranks. They were made in '26 and '27. I've sold a few on Ebay over the years. A decent one that will clean up at ten to twenty under, will bring two to three hundred dollars.

Here's what they look like:

ee


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen on Monday, December 07, 2009 - 11:30 pm:

Bud,
I'd be really wary of anyone trying to sell one with the letters stamped only on the end of the crank. Every '24 to '27 crank that I've found has either AA or EE forged into the throw between the #1 rod journal and the #2 main. Sometimes the letters are very light but, they are always there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Denis Chicoine, MD on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 12:34 am:

I suppose I need to tear apart the 3 26 blocks I have stored outside.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 01:17 am:

AA is alloy steel, EE is carbon steel. I think the improvement is the configuration of the 26-27 cranks from the earlier cranks much more so tha EE steel instead of AA steel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 03:12 am:

The same happend with the rear axles - there where also made of EE steel in the last years.
See the thorogh discussion about Texas T parts axles and the ocean to ocean rally.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 11:46 am:

Eric,Your right about the EE markings,and i think the shape of the web is flat as the early are diamond?? My builder supplied a EE that i think was .010 and .020? There are NOS EE's out there but getting one is a challange!On the other site there is a sadly dead thread about a broken maby [Bumack]Counter ballanced?? I wish Jim would have posted about it here not to hear all of the bs/bashing that would shurely follow but maby we could learn more about the how and why?? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 12:25 pm:

The thro's are in fact a different shape as pointed out. Somewhere, Paul Vitko posted pictures and visual comments while doing his own work.

I for one would like to add one comment before moving on as it does need to be said each time such a thread comes up as someone new may be a reader.

The EE are the later crank designs and are perceived to be better in construction and material processing. No one has yet actually proven why. Simply rumaging through a pile of old cranks and finding one with the EE markings on it is NOT the plug-n-play solution to be crank problem free! The 'ring' test is still the most valid approach to any crank. To each his own, but as to me, an older one that rumbles like a deep bell is still probably a better junk pile choice than an EE that goes 'thunk'. The Paul Vitko test will also show a more positive way to find a 'good' crank for use. Still no guarantees, but his methodology will definately show which one is presently the strongest candidate for use.

Bud, let's hope that dead thread stays dead as far as opinions...lol...I'll do my part to stay positive :-)

For all, I still profess that Bud has the best short term solution to crank failures...have a broken one? Post pictures of where it occurs, and what the broken face looks like. I do believe the eventual results will point in a given cause and effect, just has to work out that way.

Not to 'start'...but like Bud says, we get past the BS/Bashing part of who did the rebuild, why they did what they did, what size was this and that, and just examine the failure mode[s]as they occur...there is a bunch that could be learned. For those who have joined it, you only want to be a one time member in the 2 piece crank club if you can avoid repeats...it appears that there are perhaps maybe 1/2 dozen or so new 'members'that join annually and for some reason those new members are hesitent to post pictures for fear that someone is going to shout...bah humbug, you run an aux transmission, didn't tie it down right, cost ya a crank, eh? etc.

Pictures do speak louder than words when it comes to a fatique failure probable cause and all crank failures are fatique failures one way or the other. Pictures WILL show the starting point of why...then proper deductions can be made as to the probable cause. I realize that this is somewhat beating a dead horse...and 6 or so a year will continue to 'fail' in normal course...but if we can deduce a way to even cut that by ONE...we all win!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 06:14 pm:

Sorry to all! I need to be more carefull what i ask for! I still have the broken crankshaft,but im too dumb to post pictures! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 07:00 pm:

I would like to post the crankshaft from the Colorado State University Alumni Association. Someone had ground the cranks shaft and did not leave any radius in the crankshaft at all. the entire cranks shaft was ground to an absolute right angle. I hope you can see it in the pictures but maybe not.

Side View

view showing no radius

By the way this is the late model cranks shaft with the parallel throws. I can not find any EE or any other designation just Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 07:07 pm:

I would like to try the picture of the lack of radius again.

A354c radius


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 - 11:05 pm:

George,
With all due respect, the ring test will only tell you how well the crank will work as a wind chime. To determine if is cracked, you will need to have it magnafluxed.

Ted, Bud and George,
The '24-'27 cranks were all the same shape, with rectangular throws. Most were made with Ford's AA steel. In '26, Ford tried EE steel because they thought it would be an improvement. The old MTFCI site had the alloy chart with all of Ford's specs, but I'm unable to find it on the new site.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 12:39 am:

A good friend of mine took a crank for a 312 Ford to the machine to have it turned back in the late sixties. It rang like a bell. When he got to the shop, about a 45 minute ride, it was in two pieces in the back of his pickup. I haven't had much faith in the 'ring' test since. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 12:45 am:

Heres the data I received from forum members on AA and EE steels.

It is my contention that everything else being equal the AA steel should have higher fatigue limits than the plain carbon EE steel.

I think the change to the plain carbon EE steel was a cost saving measure. I believe the 26/27 cranks were better because of the improved cross section geometry, not any change in steel. Although I am a mechanical engineer with some metallurgical backgound, I will be the first to admit I can't prove any of this.

application/pdfSteel
Ford EE and AA Steel.pdf (11.1 k)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 01:15 am:

Fellows,it boils down to a good old crank, is a good old crank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 08:03 am:

Make sure it rings the same its full length. I had an A crank that wouldn't ring near the bottom, and it turned out to have a crack in the 4th rod journal.

rdr
Wash DC, visiting my taxes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Grady Puryear on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 10:11 am:

My .02, and a story. A relative in Austin, Texas, had a motor-transmission shop in the 60's. He had gotten into the "Hot Rod" venue, and was well known for his work, pretty good at it. He had a gallery of broken cranks, most were those that he had magnafluxed, ground and etc., then balanced both ways, up RPM and down RPM, it did make a difference. He also had a '57 Pontiac tri-power, and I had a '57 Olds tri-power, but I digress. He told me that at one time he stood his finished cranks on end, but stopped that practice after a few fell over and broke. He had no explanation for this, after all the care and etc. he put into them, but it did happen. Some blew up in use, but remember that they were being used drag racing, timed events and etc. So, it is not just T cranks that have that problem, as to what make the cranks were, at that time both Ford and GM engines were being run, he did not say if one was worse than the other.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 - 06:10 pm:

Out of my 8 spare cranks I have two with EE on them.

On the first crank, the EE is barely noticeable. The E's are about 1/8" tall. They don't look like a factory marking. It also has Ford D 22 on it which is a factory marking.

The second crank marked EE is obviously a factory marking. The E's are very large and the other markings are Ford D 2

One of the other 6 remaining cranks has the following: D Ford T498 61 ..... no EE anywhere .... just wondering where it fits in the T-crank timeline?

Regards,
Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 10:33 am:

Somebody mentioned making sure a crankshaft "rings" in order to check for cracks. If your crank does not ring real nice, it likely is cracked. HOWEVER... If your crank does "ring" real nice do youself a favor and have it Magnafluxed anyway just to be sure. I magnaflux every crank I put into an engine and I have found plenty of cracked cranks that "ring" real good all over.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 06:35 pm:

Even the two broken halves of my original crankshaft ring quite nicely when you bang them together. Maybe I could use them to make a two tone door bell.
Ring test = Model T myth. There are a lot of T's happily driving around with cracked crankshafts that would pass the ring test; it's just a matter of time and luck as to when they will break.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 07:59 pm:

I bet at least 30% of them when new wouldn't pass our testing today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 08:02 pm:

My rebuilder said mine had been cracked for some time! I think i agree with what Royce said about speed and breakage? With the old engine/crank we were clocked at 53mph once and i don't intend to ever find out how fast this semi ballanced engine will do!Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 08:56 pm:

Since:

1. The model T hobby is alive and well and will probably continue to be in the distant future,

2. There are many thousands of Ts being driven on a regular basis,

3. The brass cars, especially the very early ones are climbing in value far faster than inflation and the black cars may soon do the same,

4. Crankshaft breakage can mean destruction of rare early T engine blocks,

5. The crankshafts do break for whatever reason,

6. Few want cast nodular iron cranks for whatever reason,

7. Most want "Made in America" crankshafts but don't want to pay for billet ones,

Probably an incomplete list, but it seems to me that the Tiawanese could produce forging tooling and produce the forgings in whatever fancy recipe steel that you want and any good automotive machine shop in the US of A could grind and balance them.

NEW cranks (ZERO FATIGUE CYCLES), forged, not a thing to do with China, "Machined in the US of A".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stipe on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 11:16 pm:

I am working on my billet crank and will share some pictures hopefully soon.

If this works out just what would you guys be willing to pay for a quality crankshaft?

I can stroke or standard I can make bearings bigger or standard?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 08:23 pm:

Bill,Are you thinking of stock or longer stroke,larger journels,counter ballanced,and last but not least model T cranks seem to break in the throws so?? Still thinking,If the crankshaft was made heavier could one lighten the questionable supported flywheel and not loose low speed power?Bud.PS,Yes i really am this dumb and that's why i ask so many questions! Bud..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 11:33 am:

Is it possible that the majority of the "EE" cranks simply have less miles on them and were subject to less abuse than the earlier ones? By late 1925, roads were much improved, and by the time a couple more years went by, the Model T was kind of obsolete in many areas of the country. Is it possible that what we are running into is simply a case where it is just more likely that the average EE crank was subject to less stress and strain and years of use than the average AA crank? This is something I have always had in the back of my mind...

Now, for actual experience, I can tell you that when I Magnaflux the earlier "AA" cranks, usually only about 50% of them are free of defects. Out of the "EE" cranks I have magged (which is probably around 15 or so), I think I found 1 with a defect. What I have also found is that the AA cranks usually seem to have fairly even wear on all three main journals, while just about every EE crank is fairly even on main journals one and two, but significantly more worn on the third main journal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 11:42 am:

It's also possible that all the EE cranks are in good shape because they were installed in engines that had the hogshead bolted to the back of the block so that the fourth main didn't move all over the place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 02:41 pm:

Seth... You have another good point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 06:48 pm:

Bill Stipe,

Looking at material, engineering and manufacturing costs plus incentive......what price range could you offer a reliable, forged crank for?

I have great respect for the quality cam shafts you offer and consider your cost as reasonable. After buying a pice of 8620 steel, roughing out a camshaft for my 2 cyl. REO on a lath, having it heavy copper plated and then paying a camshaft grinder to finish grind/heat treat.....I know you are not making big $$$$'s on each cam shaft you sell.

As you know, most model T owners like me would like to have a reliable, counter balanced replacement crank shaft for our cars. Some may want them drilled for oil pressure, others may want additional stroke.....most of us would be very happy with a "Stand" crank shaft.
The bottom line.....with a reasonable mark-up, what price range would you be willing to provide subject crank shafts for? Crank shafts may make a good product line in addition to the cam shafts that you presently provide.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 07:44 pm:

Thanks Adam.

Merry Christmas to you and yours,

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stipe on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 12:12 am:

It sounds like Scat is going to be making cranks and I think the costs will be around $1300.00 dollars or so and that sounds like a very reasonable price to me. I dought if I could even get close to that.
I will see once I get this one done and figue every thing out. I have to make rods also to go with the stroked crank.
forgings are out of my reach the dies alone or thousands of dollars plus the out sourceing of the forging.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 02:46 am:

Bill

Scat is indeed making crankshafts, forged, and grounded here in the USA. They have ran some Model A, and were in the process of making the Model T/A conversion but had to pull off due to some work from GM. Hopefully by March we should have cranks for Model's T's, A's, B's, C's and a T/A conversion, all will be counter balance. I know this post will not answer all the questions, but it is as much as I know at this time.

Mike Bender


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 11:29 am:

Who is Scat?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 02:17 pm:

http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 02:36 pm:

As many of you know I had Crower make some cranks to fit the stock T block (as well as the ones for my 5 main project). They were made from billet 4340, beautifully machined, counterbalanced and nitrided for surface toughness. For 5 cranks we could not get under $2,000.00 each and that was a couple of years ago.
If Scat can produce a equivalent crank for $1,300.00 that would be awesome.
I have not given up on the crankshaft game. I should receive soon a bolt on girdle that will allow you to run a 5 main crank with no modifications to your stock T block. Assuming this works out to my satisfaction then I will explore getting a cast ductile austempered 5 main crank made. It will likely have model A size main bearings (1 5/8") but use stock T rods. I think with the extra support of 5 main bearings and counter weighted that it will live well in your average T engine, especially if used with my "floating" transmission shaft to eliminate any side ways strain caused by the road rigors on the earlier pans.
We will see. As one wise sage put it; "in 90 years we will know"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Keefer on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 02:41 pm:

Delong,
Your posts seem to show lots of good sense and knowlege.

Now with that good sense and knowlege please try to post pix of a broken crank.

I'd like to see the fatigue features. George, being a metalurgist, might be able to read the fatigue signature and give us his respected opinion.
Regards,
Noel

I have a little formal training in fatigue. There is lots of info when you look at the break.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Denis Chicoine, MD on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 02:41 pm:

How about another dumb question. If a crankshaft is drilled for a presurized system, can it also be used in a non-presurized stock system? Or does the company making the cranks "simply" drill the stock crank to run a presurized system?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Keefer on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 02:49 pm:

Noel MD,
All of the cranks that are stock simply drill ports that are needed into the stock crank. Using it in an unpressurized engine would be fine. However, I've seen some cranks that were drilled sloppily and the emerging hole was in a rod filit(?) area!

Hmmmm! I suppose if the hole was chamfered and stress relieved properly even that sloppy crank would work ok.
Regards,
Noel OKC


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Keefer on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 03:02 pm:

Here in OKC we have many capable crank grinders available, no problem there.

But, when you tell them you want a filit(?) they will tell you that that means they need to round the edges of their stone. The stones used on modern engines have a very small radius. When they do the rounding per our request he needs to dress the wheel/stone back so he can do modern engines.

These stones are expensive. They lose lots of their stone radiusing as we request. So either you move on or pay the higher price so he can pay for the removed stone material.

Or, as I suspect, the crank is ground with the stone without the required radius and the filit)?) is now a stress point, ie: a sharp, small radius and is/may be prone to breakage.
Noel OKC


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 09:08 pm:

Noel,I read your e-mail but my responce was returned? I will take pictures and download but i need a e-mail adress i can send them to? Aslo thanks for the kind word but its undersived.Spelling opt.Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Monday, December 14, 2009 - 12:51 pm:

I tried 8 crank grinders before I found one willing to do T cranks right. You would be amazed at how poor of a job the average crank grinder does when you know exactly what you are looking for and you set up the crank and check their work. I now am paying almost $200 for proper grinding of a T crank with very good accuracy. The wholesale price of having a T crank ground by the less competent crank grinders around here is around $85.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, December 14, 2009 - 03:42 pm:

And so once again you have to pay for what you get. Funny how quality costs (and pays in the long run).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck - Shreveport, LA on Monday, December 14, 2009 - 04:19 pm:

AMEN!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 12:51 am:

I will be posting some interesting tests on different cranks soon. Took a 4k road trip and met Billy Keys and Les Von Nordheim------ great people!!! Billy let me take a few cranks home to test.

One of a couple points on cranks learned is Henry was adding weight steadily to the cranks all the way to the end. The early T 498 crank is the lightest at 13 3/4 pounds. The EE weighed with Les VonNordheims scale weighed 15.6 pounds.

With each test the deflections went down WHEN the weight went up.

I believe that a method has been found to locate where a crank is weak not just that its weak. With a few more tests I think it can be explained but I want to compare the best with the worst.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 01:40 am:

We send our cranks out to a grinder here in No. Cal. at least 15 or more at a time. That way I get a better deal because of only one setup for all the cranks and my grinder doesn't complain about having to put a generous fillet radius in the stone Also, he will grind them per my request to .005" increments and not grind away till all pits are gone. I think the same deal could be made with many grinders if you could pool enough cranks to make it happen. Of course, we send only good cores, magged and within size limits. I will only go to minus .030", and that only on 26-7 cranks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 01:51 am:

Besides the difference in weight.....dimensionally compairing the EE to another 26/27 crank that I had did not reveal any siginificant differences in size. It was interesting to see that my EE crank was heaver. My EE and the other crank was rusty and had not been ground under size. The EE would possibly clean up .010" under.
Paul, enjoyed visiting with you and your wife........happy you made it safely home. Look forward to our next get together.
Les


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 02:20 pm:

There is often a significant difference in weights from crank to crank even when you are comparing similar design cranks.


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