Wooden spoke and felloe re assembly - can the average man do it ?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2009: Wooden spoke and felloe re assembly - can the average man do it ?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 09:36 pm:

Ok l am guessing that the title asks the question, BUT can the average man with average skills in an average garage perform this operation himself ( and herself - sorry ladies ).
If so can someone explain the steps to go thru and what to look/watch out for.
Are the sockets on T wheels where the spoke fits the felloes round or oval shaped and is the hole size for a front hub the same as for the rear hub ?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts or inputs.

Cheers David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 10:44 pm:

David, there was a post not too long ago showing how to make a press to shove the spokes into place. If the search function is working, maybe you can find it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Thum on Thursday, December 10, 2009 - 11:14 pm:

Below is the web site on how to build a wheel press

http://www.funprojects.com/pdf/WheelpressA2.pdf

A well thought out document by John Regan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 12:08 am:

IMPORTANT - The John Regan well press is only intended for wheels with METAL felloes, not wood.

With a metal felloe, the spoke cans swing up and doen because of the shallow depth of the holes in the felloes. But with a wood felloe the tenon and hole are deeper and the spoke can't swing up and down.

There's a different technique for assembling wheels with wood felloes. Wood felloes are in two pieces per wheel. The spokes are put into each felloe half, and then the two felloe/spoke assemblies are pressed together into the rim while flat.

Diameter of the hubs where the spokes rest the same for both front and rear hubs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 07:13 pm:

OK thanks, but does anyone have a guide to the wood felloe type, for a brake/crack free installation !
Thanks again David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 07:51 pm:

There are several types of wheels with metal fellos. Be sure to get the right spokes for the wheel you want to re-spoke. Lengths are different and some tenon sizes different. If you have the right spokes for your wheel it is not hard.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 08:19 pm:

"The Model T Ford Restoration Handbook" has a chapter on this showing you how to utilize your ceiling joists and a jack to press the spokes into place. Type Snyder's part number BC-18 in the "Product Search" box at www.snydersantiqueauto.com. If you don't have this book, you should get it as it has a wealth of useful information, ideas and parts sources. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 10:09 pm:

How high are your spring perches? Just by sight, it looks like your spring perches may be too short. See: www.snydersantiqueauto.com/modeltparts/frontrearsprings and scroll down to the perches. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick - (2) '26's - Bartow, FL on Friday, December 11, 2009 - 10:11 pm:

Sorry. Wrong thread. Bye. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 01:05 am:

The spoke nipples are round.

If you are going to rebuild wood felloe wheels, I suggest that you have it done by a professional wheelwright such as Calimers Wheel Shop:

http://www.calimerswheelshop.com/

I do not believe anyone is selling spokes and wooden felloes for wooden-felloe Model T Ford wheels. If someone is selling them and you have the ability to actually assemble a wheel, you may be able to shrink the rim onto the felloe as explained in thread below .

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/98511.html

Erik Johnson


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 08:51 am:

David,
In the early 1970's, when I was about 20 years old & no money, I rebuilt a set of wheels like I believe you are talking about for my '14 Hucksters Wagon. The wheels were not a set and one was purchased without the rim. I found the rim being used as a basketball goal on a garage at a farm sale. As for the diameter of the hub, I think the front and rear hubs are interchangable but the tires are a different diameter front to rear, 30 x 3 in the front and 30 x 3-1/2 in the rear (at least on the USA cars). This amounts to a 24" diameter wheel in the front and 23" diameter in the rear. I filled the existing holes (except for the valve stem) in the rims with brazing, then sandblasted/primed them. The wood was scraped and sanded smooth. I took a piece of thin sheet metal, just under the width of the felloe and as long as each half, and some #6 x 5/8" or so flathead wood screws and attached it to the outside of the felloe to take up some space between the wood and the rim.

With the rim flat on the floor, I matched up the valve stem holes and took a rubber mallet and drove the wood/with spokes installed (no hub yet) in the rim. The rim was installed upside down from where it was originally so I had new holes to drill into for the rivets. I then installed the hub. You've got to work the hub in a little bit at a time so you don't break the tendon area at the felloe. The front plate is then installed and the assembly can be set on the axle to true up. When the wheel is on the axle, you can tap the wood back & forth in the rim until the wheel runs straight...or at least as true as you can get a wheel that is approaching 100 years old! New holes were drilled for the rivets and the rivets installed (cold). As for the gap between the rim and wheel, it was filled with epoxy (that place is out of business now). It would be kind of like Quik-Poly now. Sand it down and finish as you like.

The wheels are still working however, they are getting loose. The car has been a lot of miles. I intend to put a set of wheels with new wood on it one of these days but back when I did the wheels, the method described was the popular "fix". Oh, you asked about the holes, if they are round or oval shaped. I assume you are talking about the tendon that fits in the felloe. I've seen some that are kind of oval shaped but I don't know that it was intentional. I'll have to say, the wheels I restored like this were in good shape, meaning the wood was not rotted...they were solid wheels to begin with...well, except for the one wheel that I replace a couple of spokes in...with oak! (This was before it was discovered that oak was not the wood to use.) Hope this is what you were asking about. You can see the car with the wheels I'm talking about by clicking on my name at the top of the posting.
Verne


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 11:49 am:

I built a simple press using wood, all-thread rod, nuts and washers. I use it with a hydraulic jack to install and remove hubs from Model T wheels without disturbing the spokes. I'll try to post photos sometime.

I haven't heard of anyone assembling wheels with wood felloes at home using new, tight felloes and spokes though I'm sure it has been done. The two semi-circular felloes with spokes installed are pressed into the wheel, and then the hubs are installed.

The traditional method for building wagon and carriage wheels is to assemble the felloes, spokes and hubs without the steel rim. The steel rim is heated so that it expands and is then dropped into place. Once the rim is in place and aligned, water is poured over the rim to cool it so that the wood felloe doesn't burn (too much). I do not recommend this method for Model T wheels because it would be difficult to get a true running wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 11:52 am:

Wood felloes need to be tight in the rim so that friction helps to hold the rim in place. If the rim slips into place you are relying only on six, thin, soft steel rivets to hold the rim and tire on your car when you go around a corner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare on Saturday, December 12, 2009 - 05:42 pm:

Great thanks, that gives me heaps to do, these wheels are a little odd in size , now with the spokes taken out and the felloe left in l can measure relatively accurately and find that the ID is between 22 5/8 and 22 11/16" with a width of 2 7/8" wide.
Strangely the round style felloe joining plates have a K on them assume kelsey , but to replace where do l find K plates, all l see is H and P oh yeah and blank plates.
Still 24" OD for the 30 x 3 1/2" tyres/tires.
When l found them they both had Ford hub caps on and mounted to a Ford front axle.
Again a mystery !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 01:20 am:

23" rim diameter for 30 x 3 1/2 tires, and 24" rim diameter for 30 x 3 tires. Rim diameter is the diameter of the "cylinder" the tire rests against. Add the bead and the overall diameter of the rim is larger than the rim diameter.

Clincher tires are 100% aspect ratio, so the rim diameter for a 30" diameter, 3 1/2" section tire is 30" - 2 X (3 1/2") = 23". Note that the numbers in the tire sizes represent nominal, not actual, tire dimensions. The nominal tire section size is wider than the corresponding rim width. Most 30 x 3 1/2 clincher tires sold today are oversize, sometimes closer to a 31 x 4. Still fits on a 23" clincher rim though.

I just checked a Model T rim for a 30 x 3 1/2 tire. Overall width of the rim is 2 7/8, overall diamter, and the inside diamter which the felloe is against is 22 11/16+. So it sounds like you have 30 x 3 1/2 wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Augustinovich on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 04:32 am:

You don't see these everyday?
spokes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 08:35 am:

We saw the Terra Cotta Soldiers display at the NatGeo HQ in DC last week. They were created in 221-210 BC, and discovered in 1974. They had 4-horse chariots for battle, like the Romans did. We couldn't take pix, but their wheels were about 30", with lots of spokes, a true forerunner of the T. They were built to standards so they all fit the same ruts. Dunno what that standard was, but could be close to 56", like the Romans and all up through the T.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/terracottawarriors/

horse

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 08:41 am:

Dunno why, but the pgm won't allow uploading a .tif pic. Had planned to show a chariot.

The wheels must have 24 or 36 spokes. I should have counted.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff rey L. Vietzke on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 02:21 pm:

The front and rear hubs are not the same on these wheels (Talking wood felloe T here). I'd recommend taking them to a wheelwright. A lot of labor and knowledge involved in a safe wood-felloe wheel. They must be very tight and fairly true. Much more difficult and more of an art-form than your standard, late model steel felloe wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare on Sunday, December 13, 2009 - 06:00 pm:

Thanks for your input, wheelwright it looks like is the best and safest answer ( might even be cheaper if l inadvertantly crack the felloe as l have just done removing the rotten half of this old wheel., David C,you are correct l was measuring from the inside diameter of the rim and including the total height ie, side of rim where the clincher is located, you are correct 23" and 24 "
Any thoughts on the K felloe joint cap ?

David


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Monday, December 14, 2009 - 12:15 am:

Front and rear hubs for wood spoke wheels are IDENTICAL where the spokes interface. The diameter where the spokes rest is 2.187 to 2.190 based on several front and rear hubs I just measured. Front and rear hubs are different elsewhere.


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