Another Speedster Question: Radius Rods

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2009: Another Speedster Question: Radius Rods
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 09:31 pm:

I actually meant to ask this at the same time as my lowering question, but since I didn't, I'll start a new thread. I have two books on T speedsters but both seem to have been written before Ford moved the radius rod below the front axle. They suggest adding auxilliary radius rods to the bottom of the axle and running them back to the frame. I'm working with a '26-'27, and intend to move the front axle forward and up in front of the radiator. What I was thinking about doing was doing away with the Ford wishbone altogether and running a radius rod from the bottom of the sring perch below the axle and back to the side rail of the frame and only have two rather than four radius rods. Is this acceptable?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 09:43 pm:

The blood thirsty judges of Speedsters really really like you to make the parts from the original Model T wishbones and also not use Heim joints. Use class and original parts and you will be O K. If you use Heim joints and cover them with leather boots, they will hunt you down like the hounds from Hell and get you disqualified so you can't run with them. They are into pain and suffering so you must be in to it too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 09:50 pm:

Frank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 09:53 pm:

Frank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 09:53 pm:

I probably won't use Heim joints. I'm thinking something more along the lines of shoulder bolts through holes in flattened tubing or maybe come up with a ball and socket joint using wishbone repair balls. Not sure yet.

But structurally, wouldn't it be OK to use single radius rods coming from the bottom of the axle at the spring perch and back to the frame side rail?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 10:53 pm:

It should be fine and while you are at it why don't you add some front wheel brakes so you can really stop the car. Speedsters have very little weight on the rear axle so the brakes easily lock the wheels. Thus no matter how great the rear brakes you are using they can't be too effective.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey on Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 11:57 pm:

Actually a speedster will stop better with only rear brakes than a touring or a roadster (runabout).
when you build a speedster with the front axle moved forward you transfering weight to the rear axle.
When you move the battery back so it isn't under the driver's seat you are transfering weight to the rear.
Have you ever seen a low slung speedster with the gas tank under the cowl or the seat? No?
It goes behind the moved back seat. More weight transfer.
The big front fenders are usually gone from a speedster. Mucho percentage of weight transfer.
I have never driven a speedster that has as much weight on the front wheels as my '26 touring.
A drive and a panic stop will prove a speedster will stop much better than a stock T with a stock body and no rear seat passengers.
Now a touring with three grown people in the back seat.... that's a different story.
What a differance 450 lbs. makes when it is placed over the brake wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Bausch on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 12:25 am:

Dear Frank Harris,
After 6 plus years of putting up with your lies and other doo doo and since my doctor refused to give me any anti depressants I resigned from the SCVMTFC Endurance Run Tech committee two monthes ago. You win Frank, you are the Grand POO BAH expert on all rules pertaining to the SCVMTFC Endurance Run. I now speak for myself, my words no longer represent the Endurance Run.

Hal,
I currently run single split wishbones on the front on my speedster with Early V8 tie rod ends. I used two Model T wishbones with one half cut off and welded the threaded section of the tie rod to T wishbone half. I am in the process of redoing the car and will change the V8 tie rod ends for Model A tie rod ends. I believe it is true that if you were to use V8 tie rod ends or Heim joints and were to cover them with leather that should get you past the tech guys. Might want to check with someone connected with the tech committee if you were to go that route. If you would like I will post a picture of my current set up. Regards Gary Bausch


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy J Williams on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 01:15 am:

Gary,

I feel really bad for you and I am sorry you had to put up with so much from different people, you worked hard to do the right thing. The run is suppose to be fun, and all they (tech committie) wants to do is just keep some of the authenticity from back in the day. I would think anybody who wants to run could send pics of there car in advance before making the trip. That is what I would do since I live in the Portland area.

The bottom line as was stated on a post a few years ago that it is there run and they are free to make up the rules. I may not agree with every rule, but it is not my place to complain since I am not a SCVMTFC member.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 02:37 am:

Gary, et al,
It saddens me to hear that you (Gary) quit the tech committee. You did an excellent job running the fence between differing crazies.
I thought this was to be a forum question on how to fix the wishbone to move the front end forward, not another can of worms from another thread about what is right or wrong. There are good authentic ways to attach the split wish bone that do not cause pain or make it in any way unsafer or even more expensive than the "easy way out modern cheats".
To answer the original question. Whether you are early style or late does not matter, the wishbone can be split and moved to the side of the frame. You SHOULD use a piece of steel plate at least 1/4 inch thick and at least 2 inches wide to drop the wishbone anchors (whether authentic or modern) a couple inches below the frame. It gives the front end a stronger brace against the chassis than a steep angle to the frame. Not too low, that becomes unstable in other ways. Also, setting up the caster is critical, but easy. A little more than stock makes them handle the highway better, but too much makes them VERY hard to steer.
W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 04:19 am:

Gary, My intent is not to win and I do love the Santa Clara run and all of the folks in it. The only people up there that I really knew were Doc "Bill" Lawrence with whom I served on the National HCCA national board for several years and Jim Cullinane. The run is well done and the rules are the rules. The only difference is that I have found loop holes that are rather large and the group that runs the run is not open to debate. No hard feelings and I wish them well.

So I vote with my feet. The National MTFCA at the Centennial at the 100th celebration sort of stated that anything that had been run on a track or is currently running with equipment used in the time of the use of the Model T was legal and they invited me to run at the event. So I tend to think that the general feeling is that it is not to draw the line at 1927 but to draw it when Model T's were no longer active on the track. So I can run anywhere in the world but at Santa Clara. I know that the Santa Clara run is not a race nor is it on a track. It is a times trial for a timed distance using things made before 1928. Those are the rules made up by those people and that is how that game is played if you wish to play that particular game. They are special and they can be special all they want. I wish them luck. Several of the cars that were regulars over the years are no longer elligible and must stay home. One of the cars that regularly ran at Santa Clara is no longer eligible but is illegally honored in the Speedster Hall of Fame according to Santa Clara. I rest my case. God Speed and have a nice day. Again , no hard feelings . . . .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 04:27 am:

You caught me Ron Patterson, I was in terrific pain that day at my son Bill's house due to Spinal Stinosis which really gets you down when it wants to. Pain was at an 8 at the time the picture was taken that day but I was toughing it out without medication. The pills only make you goofy so it is a trade off. Being silly and happy or talking straight.

Here is a picture of me with no pain.



t


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 01:24 pm:

Gary,

Yes, I would like to see pictures if it's not too much trouble. I'm not too worried about the tech guys. It's just going to be a fun car. I have no intentions of entering it in anything other than maybe a local car show.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 01:54 pm:

Gary,

It seems splitting T wishbones and attaching them to the frame was common practice. Be careful for strength of the fittings and the geometry of the front end but no single method is "right". For certain, use double wishbones or something stronger if you intend to put brakes on the front axle.

If you think you may want to compete in any speedster events, find the rules for the organization that hosts them so that you won't have future issues. The rules about the cars vary a fair bit from club to club. The Santa Clara folks are probably the most stringent. In contrast, the Nortwest Vintage Speedsters rules allow for 4 cylinder cars thru 1934 so we see Model A's, Chevys, Buick, and a Dodge at events. The NWVS folks are also more flexible about allowing newer items that are intended to enhance safety - particularly brakes and steering components that are not from the era. As long as you fit with those you may want to run with, who can say you are wrong.

In the end, it's your car and your checkbook. Stay safe and enjoy it.

Walt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 03:04 pm:

Here are the solutions by Humble Howard. He used Model T wishbones and it is period correct.

7

77

777


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 03:51 pm:

The last picture above with the yellow frame represnts the Ed Winfield two up two down car known as number one ( 1 ) It shows that with hard driving on a dirt track you do not need double wishbones or radius rods according to the master.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 04:54 pm:

What supposed suspension defect is overcome with the split wishbone?

uf

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 05:53 pm:

The double wishbone is to keep the axle from twisting over.

The split wishbone when doubled and fasted to the side accomplishes the same thing. It also allows the moment arm to be adjusted when relocating the front axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon on Friday, December 18, 2009 - 03:21 am:

Me again,
As one of the "hard-core nut-cases" (don't get defensive, anyone, that is what I call me), I would like to point out, that whether you use tie rod ends from a model A, or any of many '30s cars with similar type tie rod ends, they are technology, style, and design that goes back to the teens and I would defend their use. It is just the newer types that look like they could have been taken from my sons' Firebird that I object to. They stand out as obviously not era type. Gary,I would have to admit, though, I don't know what Ford used in 1932. Modern stuff---.
W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Clary on Friday, December 18, 2009 - 11:30 am:

I do not belong to the Santa Clara club but I do particpate in thier run. They don't need me to stick up or speak for them. Gary, I'm sorry to see you step down as tech director. Frank, let it rest.

Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Bausch on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 06:54 pm:

To all,
I apoligize for my part in taking this topic off thread. As Buddy on the Night Court (TV Show) used to say " I am feeling much better now" so I will not do it again.

Hal,
Hopefully I will be successful in posting pictures of my chassis modifications. I did these changes in the early 80's, using early Ford V8 tie rod ends and Brizio Street rods made the frame brackets. It was a quick and easy way of doing it. Over the years as I have looked at how other people have attached the split wishbones/radius to their frames I have come not like how how mine look. I like the ball and socket set up that Humble Howard is using. It would work just as well with with a single wishbone. Wayne, I do not know what the 1932 Ford front end stuff looks like, need to check it out. I will keep an eye out at Turlock next month. Ricks if you look through Fast Ford Handbook and Speed And Sport it was common on Racers to split the wishbones and radius rods. We are not trying to correct some suspension defect. I am offering up these pictures as only one of sixty-eleven ways of modifying your Speedster chassis. I will be replacing the V8 tie rod ends with something else, probably Model A tie rod ends but hope to find something different and cool at Turlock. When I did this I wanted to lower the car and have it be stout, I feel I accomplished both. Like I said I am going to redo some of the stuff on my Speedster. I am going to use a staight axle, with a reverse rolled eye main leaf spring to give me another 1" of ground clearance.Here are the numbers for the frame lowering:

Rear: 6" lowering bracket I made,with 3rd spring leave left out. Lowering bracket is 1.5" X .5" flat stock, I had the doubled over section welded together then I ground the welds down smooth.

Front:5" frame drop. 2" dropped axle with late spindles. As you can see by one of the pictures I can just clear a 4x4. The "new" front cross member is 8.5" out in front of the Stock T crossmember. Complete stock front spring.
Regards Gary Bausch
ImageName1
ImageName2
ImageName3
ImageName3
ImageName4
ImageName5


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Bausch on Saturday, December 19, 2009 - 07:40 pm:

Here are some more. Regards Gary Bausch
ImageName1
ImageName2
ImageName3
ImageName4


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration