Timer cover question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2009: Timer cover question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Mills on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 09:04 pm:

I am finally putting my motor back together after first finding a block, new rings, tightening bearings, lapping valves, and everything else, I have the transmission bolted to the crank, I have a modern oil seal to install but the directions say to install the timer cover using the centering tool then install the pan. I dont have the timer alignment tool as of yet and was wondering if it makes a difference if I install the pan first or the cover first? Do I really need the alignment tool? And the seal instructions also say to install with the lip facing the inside? It seems to me that the open side with the spring should go to the inside? It also seems to me that the timer and pan should be installed close to the same time to get a good seal with the silicone? Any help would be apreciated, thanks Rob.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 09:18 pm:

Rob
You MUST use the front plate to camshaft centering tool to assure correct ignition to camshaft timing.
This tool ! is available from several of the Model T parts suppliers. Make sure you insist on this particular KRW reproductions tool as others are available and not made correctly.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 09:19 pm:

Rob
You MUST use the front plate to camshaft centering tool to assure correct ignition to camshaft timing.
This tool ! tool on the right is available from several of the Model T parts suppliers. Make sure you insist on this particular KRW reproductions tool as others are available and not made correctly.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 09:37 pm:

Rob
It is a LOT easier if you install the cover first. Certainly it can be done the other way, it is just more difficult. The store bought tool is nice but if you have access to a lathe you can make one. I have even seen them made from a chunk of hardwood on a wood lathe. The important thing is drill the right size hole to just fit over the cam shaft extension and do that on the lathe first. Then machine/turn the outside alignment lip to fit closely where the timer goes in and be sure it is concentric to the hole (otherwise the tool is useless)
Be careful not to use too much silicone. If you have "grapes" hanging inside the engine they will break loose and plug the oiling system. I have seen this happen to others.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 09:44 pm:

Rob, the open side of the seal is the lip side. Install it like the instructions say. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 09:45 pm:

The timing gear cover goes on first and should be aligned as posted by Ron Patterson. You can move the cover as you tighten up the bolts. You want the timer centered over the end of the camshaft. Then when you get all those bolts tight, you can install the crankcase. It is almost impossible to center the timing gear cover after the crankcase is bolted up. The seal goes with the spring to the inside.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Mills on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 11:11 pm:

Ok, sounds like I am done for the weekend, has anyone use the alignment tool from langs? Thanks for the help.. Rob......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 11:32 pm:

Rob,

Your profile does not indicate where you are located. You need to find a local T club and join it. You will find that most T people will go out of their way to help a newbe. Someone near you will help or lend you the alignment tool. Then they will help you to learn and drive the car. I live in the Denver area and would help if I could.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 01:05 am:

Point one, the cover really needs to be put on the block before the block goes on the pan, or the cover will not go low enough to center.
Point two, alignment tools are great, if you have a good one, but the cover can be properly centered with careful use of a caliper. I actually used a machinists' ruler once, but by any method you must be very careful to make it centered close to perfect.
Point three, the reason it needs to be centered is that distributor gears will wear badly if you run a distributor or worse. With the 'T' timer, as the roller goes around, the roller goes up on the high side and down on the low side. As it goes up and down, it angles forward and back making it advance the timing on one or two cylinders while retarding the timing on the other one or two cylinders. The engine will not run at its best. Plus, it will run well enough on two or three cylinders get good power and speed forcing the most retarded cylinder to breath late-burning gasses out the exhaust valve causing the valve to burn making the engine run really badly.
How do I know this? I broke a timing gear many years ago and did an "in the car exchange". I was unable to get the cover down low enough to center the timer. After burning number 4 valve badly and number three a little bit four times, I unbolted the entire block wedged it up to re-center the cover.

W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Mills on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 01:58 am:

Thanks for the info, Paul, I dont think there are any T ppl other than one real close to me and he is going through a rough patch with chemo right now. I dont mind buying what I need as long as its a good product and asking questions on the net as long as guys are open to giving answers the best they can. When I get stuck I ask and most of the time I get real good answers and it seems to work. Thanks again... Rob...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 02:18 am:

Rob,

The alignment tool from Langs is a quality product. I heard that Henry Ford was quoted as saying " If you need a tool and do not buy it you will soon find out that you have paid for it." I may have mis-quoted him on this but I think that it is true. Ask lots of questions and the guys on the forum will help you out.

Best regards,

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 10:47 am:

Rob, you didn't say if you had the tool for the rear of the pan, but that also needs to be aligned. Have fun, KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lee Crenshaw on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 11:06 am:

Just a Note: on '09-'10 engines with the original timers the whole assembly rides and centers on the camshaft. Cover centering is not required.
If you have a different style timer, then the front cover has been changed and you need to center up like later models.
Lee


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Mills on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 01:58 pm:

Ok Keith you got me, I read the book and it didnt say anything about a tool used to align the back that I saw other than checking the pan to make sure its straight in a jig? What is the tool for the back? I tell you the more I get into this T the more I am finding out how complex they really are. This started out as just changing the bands and seeing if it would fire up. LOL.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 02:11 pm:

Rob,in Langs catalog it is item #KRW-CCL, crankcase locator. Fits on the tranny tailshaft to allign the pan and the hogshead for the ball cap to fit properly. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 07:01 pm:

Paul
The exact quote is: "If you need a tool and don't buy it, soon you will find you paid for it and don't have it". Some believe Henry Ford picked it up from William Pioch who was Ford's immensely gifted manufacturing tool designer.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 08:18 pm:

Ron,

Thanks for posting the exact quote. I knew I was close.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Mills on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 08:25 pm:

I know this question is going against what Paul and Ron have quoted but, Is there another way of ligning the tail shaft without the tool? Does everyone use that alignment tool or is that the only option I have? I was thinking of installing the texas T 4th main with a bearing and didnt know if I needed it when using that bearing? Thanks... Rob...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 09:24 pm:

I use the 4th main itself to align it. Turn the engine on nose end and support so that the crankshaft hangs freely, that is do not put weight on the front end of the crankshaft. You put in the two bottom bolts of the 4th main and it should move in and out with a bind on the crankshaft. If there is a bind, you need to move the crankcase either left or right or up or down. After you get it just right tighten all the bolts around the crankcase and the 4th main should stillnot bind.
Norm


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