2008 progress,...(The beginning of the thread)
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/77945.html

A recap of the old thread...

Narrowed a 1925 Chrysler radiator shell, still need to shorten it up though for a stance I'll be pleased with. Also installed a high arch, pre-1926 front spring. Gave better ride hight. We'll see how she works out later,... if needed adjustments will be made.




Played with the rear home made quarter elliptical springs, made from a halved Model T front spring (ala, Johhnny Gerber) and tacked in a front spring perch knuckle to see where it might rest appropriately.

2008 photos....(Progress recap)

2009!

Ah,...screw the Super Bowl! ;-)
I decided to work today and into the evening a little!

Finally got some good weather this afternoon to get a little done with this racer. Not much, but somthing....

Tacked up the mounts from the frame to the springs, then took some 3" tubing and sliced it in half, twice, yielding me
four halves to make half round clamps with for the spring mounts at the rear axle.

Took the two front spring perch knuckles I had cut up before, and reshaped them a little at their bases, checking their fit as I went.
Then cut two 1/4" long rings to fit over their bases after they're welded up solid, thus slipping the rings over the weded base, and welding that up
as an extra amount of backing. A little overkill, but I'd rather overkill it, than BE killed IN it!

I still have to cut up some angles to brace the ears that come off the halves of the clamps where the bolts slip through.
This way the ears won't suffer from bending when they get tightened, and draw down.

I'm hoping to get the wire wheels taken down to the blaster if I get the chance?

UPDATE.... Feburary, 10 2009....

Just about finished up with the rear suspension setup. Just need to attach a few more little pices to the clamps that were made, add two small braces to the areas that attach to the speing shackles, clean everything up a little and that shoud be that untill I'm ready to rivet on the mounts for good.

Was working on the rear suspension as well as the modified rear crossbrace. Using other T parts, it should be structurally sound and rigid enough as it would have been in the late 1920s.



I'll be adding a 1/4" thick strap that will be riveted onto the top of the crossmember to both strengthen and add a nice old industrial feel to it. (This is what you see drawn on top of the crossmember to show its future placement.)
Rivets are a wonderful thing of beauty!

This shows the whole setup a little better...

Very nice! Keep the updates coming.

Did you copy that whole rear suspension setup, or is it your own?

Will it need radius rods?

rdr

Guys thank you for your kind words.


Ricks-

The only thing I copied was the idea of cutting a model T front spring in half, and using it as Johnny Gerber did for rear suspension. Otherwise, the entire setup, mounts, etc. are mine. I was inspired by the old setups back then, different photos, etc. but could not find any old brackets to use, nor could I really ever see up close the old brackets to really copy anything very well. There was always something in the way of the brackets even if it was a close up photo!

Only saw a pair of brackets on ebay that were on a frame that never sold. Other than that I just studied photos and talked with people.

So, the idea is to now build up some weld atop the TIG welded parts, then blend it in and make it appear as it they are more like old castings than welded up parts. Heck if that doesn't look right when all is said and done, maybe I'd be able to make them look like old welds from the late 1920s! HA!

Oh yes, and I'll need rear radius rods!

I fear that the weight will be to much for taking hard turns and the weight and stress that will rest solely on the torque tube ball at the trans as it might want to pull and push at that point. So I'll be needing to overcome that with keeping it in place, along with the springs working to achieve this, with the addition and help of radius rods. Think I may make them from T and Model A parts,... we'll see??

Fighting the insane amount of wind gust, I decided to brave the kite-flying weather of 45-55 mph wind gusts and got some work done after all.... that is, when I wasn't playing, "Human Kite!"

Got the rear crossmemeber rivited up with the bracing I had cut.



Then started to figure out the placement of my seat in relation to steering column and hand brake....

(Did a little time travelling today, via photos,....)


My 1920's coveralls,... (faux sponsor on coveralls of my actual family owned Barbershop-Pool Hall way back when in the 1920s?)

Jason,
Where do you plan to drive this car? If on the road, you will have to go slow and avoid all bumps. Will it have shock absorbers? It looks like it will be low to the ground and less likely to roll over, but the low clearance between the front axle and the front crossmember scares me.
Norm

Come on guys let's not start this. This has been a nice thread, showing some great stuff. Regardless of Jason's past behavior, he has been nothing but nice here. Why start trouble.

Jason,

I like the riveted reinforcing strap on the rear crossmember. The rivets are a nice "period" touch.

Norman-

The car will probably see almost no street use, that's been my intention from the start, but is beig built as a historical car, to be raced at tracks and exhibition races, living history events, etc.

The car that I've been inspired by, when dealing with the modifications of the front end suspension, has been John Gerber's #15 car, and more-so the "Voboril" car at the American Museum of Speed in Illinois.
- Voboril car -


(link to car on museum website)
http://www.museumofamericanspeed.com/Collections/Vehicles/Voboril1.shtml

I obtained the higher, pre-1926 front spring in and installed it. It certainly did make a world of difference.
As stated a while back in another thread, I'm still headed towards this setup, but may change it up a bit as the rear end is setting itself up a bit differently than the ride height I have been shooting for. I'll probably even up each end (front and rear) to find the happy medium for the torque tube's placement. As always, nothing is set in stone yet, but I'm keeping my focus and original intent for the project, intact.

It's all a learning experience, a very enjoyable one.

Jerry-

Thank you very much for your "kind" words, they are much appreciated!

Yes, I'm still have more work to do on everything, front to back. I'm tossing around ideas on the rear cross member as far as bracing to the frame rails, etc.

Oh Norm,... here's a few more photos of this same setup,...
one or two had the front spring bent outwards though,, I know Gerber's car did that.

They were all run with good success.

Gerber -


Lawrence Hughes -


Voboril car (again)-

You have to be careful to avoid clashing arcs in building suspension. Ford designed the front and rear end to swing on a long arc. The longest leaf of the spring twists slightly as it moves up and down; so little it's almost not a consideration. The spring's anchor is very close to the upward extension arc.

If you keep the same wishbone axis, and anchor the spring in a different place, you can end up with a clash of arcs.

rdr

Ooops, forgot one,...

Bob Maze -


Though Bob didn't use any, yes ANY rear suspension. Not sure how that worked out for him?!
The only cars I know of off the top of mu head that were built with no suspension that ran high speeds were the Bob Rufie streamliner og the 1930s that clocked over 140 mph on the Muroc dry lake in California and the Hilborn streamliner, who also ran at high speeds in Southern California.

Ricks-

I forgot to add to my reply to you that I was looking to make new rear radius rods and affix them to the sides of the frame.

Otherwise, do you have any thoughts on how not to clash between the arcs with regards to this setup so far beyond the stock setup?

Rajo jack's low suspension setup in the early 1920s.
("four" quarter elliptical springs though...)

It looks like the springs pivot on the rearend will keep them from binding. The radius rod will have to match the driveshaft length. I imagine that in the day they just spent two bits and replaced bent axle housings regularly. Easy enough with the bolt on spring mounts. It is a race car with a dubious life span.

Andy Clary

Fascinating work there, Jason. I too, was wondering about the stress on the rear axle tubes. But then I also realized that there will be almost no weight on them--and then I also realized there must be SOME, or you won't have any traction, nor stability in the corners. Soo, although I don't see them in the old photos, have you considered a truss rod under & over the axle? Andy has a point about the, in the era, abundunt, cheap, supply of axles and other parts which is not the case today--rats, if it were we'd all have a LOT more T's in the back 40!!
Keep us posted, even though I'm not likely to ever do anything this radical, it is very interesting!
T'
David D.

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quote:

It looks like the springs pivot on the rearend will keep them from binding. The radius rod will have to match the driveshaft length. I imagine that in the day they just spent two bits and replaced bent axle housings regularly. Easy enough with the bolt on spring mounts. It is a race car with a dubious life span.

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quote:

Fascinating work there, Jason. I too, was wondering about the stress on the rear axle tubes. But then I also realized that there will be almost no weight on them--and then I also realized there must be SOME, or you won't have any traction, nor stability in the corners. Soo, although I don't see them in the old photos, have you considered a truss rod under & over the axle? Andy has a point about the, in the era, abundunt, cheap, supply of axles and other parts which is not the case today--rats, if it were we'd all have a LOT more T's in the back 40!!
Keep us posted, even though I'm not likely to ever do anything this radical, it is very interesting!
T'

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quote:

Chuck Hoffman -
I built a T back in the '60's and made a quarter eliptic setup by just cutting a couple full springs in half. Mounted the front part to the frame, bolted to a pad and the eye attached to the lower half of the axle housing. Had to fab some traction bars so it wouldn't try to rotate. Worked fine.

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Stan Howe -
If you build one of those and campaign it hard enought to bend the housings come see me. I have dozens of housings. I'll even straighten a set for you free. I want to see a car like that running.

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Adversity is the mother of success....

That #15 is a good looking car, and looks like he had the same type suspension.
Norm

Fascinating post Jason! Thanks for sharing your work and taking the time to post pics and explanations. That's going to be one historically sweet speedster!

Guys thank you so much, its all very appreciated!

I'm doing the best I can, and learning in the process. I've spent some good hours just staring at photos over the last few months. Its amazing how you'll look one for the 27 time and suddenly something new pops out at you!

I rolled the chassis out from where it was stuck, since I got my Model A chassis back in the garage (had it out to paint my '29 roadster body. Its stance it the same low one that Gerber and Rajo Jack had on their cars,... honestly, getting it to the ground and off the jack stands a bit (it was propped up level on very unlevel ground) I'm a little surprised out at how low she really is! HA!

There's practically no way this will ever see street use!! LOL!!!! I'd have to be driving across the planes in AZ or something!! LOL!

I came across a VERY similar setup to the front end I've gone with, one that I found in a book recently. I'm still toying with adjusting the front end a little,... this other setup looks almost exactly the same, only difference it it should give me about an extra inch more of travel there. I'm still looking over the front end and the photos back and forth before I make any decisions yet.

You know, measure 200 times then cut once.....!

I caught an error here guys in my photo postings,...

This is NOT lawrence hughs! Its another shot of Gerber's car! I can't find the Lawrence Hughes car just now,...


Just wanted to clear that up for your guys for accuracy sake.

The housings must be pretty stout to hold up under that configuration. Keep in mind, even if spare parts were plentiful, nobody would have wanted to be knocked out of a race due to a broken axle housing. If it was a weak point, the guys would have reinforced it.

P.S. I LOVE IT!!

Jason keep up the good work. keep everyone posted with words and pictures as you progress.

Yep, she'll never see the street, strickly for the track I'd say! LOL!!

I want to gain 1-1.5" higher stance on this.... so I might change up the rear spring mounts a little.... we'll see. (Keep in mind my driveway is uneven ground, so its not really this bad!)
Plus it helps to have something better than half filled up tires too!

I think it is going to be neat,but you may need a belly pan.I like it.

Belly pan?.... HA! Don't ya mean,.. SKID PLATE!! LOL!

Jason

Really enjoying this thread on your racer.

While probably unlike your rear axle design, this 20's Ford was set up low too.

The copy reads in part: " ..wheelbase of only 72". The tread was narrowed to 44". The front axle was dropped 6" and spring seats welded to it. The springs were made special for the job and were designed that they had only 1/2" camber in them with the car loaded, allowing the top of the frame to be level with the center of the axles."


The motor built for the Craig-Hunt racer

jason;
i thought i'd weigh in on 1/4 eliptic springs here...i've had a couple of gp bugattis with 1/4 eliptic rears, tho they were reversed so as to give a longer spring base...the bug set up was with the springs at the rear and a torque arm up the driveshaft side..there was no means to keep the axle centered other than the springs and eyes themselves..the springs were beefy and "butted" [forged to a thicker dimension] at the eye..two giant bolts went thru the springs to hold them in alignment to a pretty beefy and well triangulated frame.
looking at your setup it would seem to me that even if the springs were stiff sideways that the shackles will allow a lot of side movement in the rear end..i would suggest a panhard rod that links one side of the rear axle tube to the opposite frame rail, thus taking the side load off the springs..
i have an old speedster i built years ago and i used 1/4 eliptics on the top of the front axle with leading radius arms on the bottom [the arms are plates that double as friction shocks at the frame mount..very milleresque]..it works great but in combination with a severe rear frame z in the rear i had to block the engine UP 2" to get any ground clearance!
in a later car i solved the problem with a very small dia flywheel and cut a couple inches off the pan and welded a plate on. so, you say, how did it run with virtually no flywheel? well i ran it at tracks only and with a push start once you let the clutch out the drivetrain acted as a flywheel and you went as fast as you could..if you declutched, the engine stopped!!
your car looks great- just keep working and don't paint it till you drive it a bit..you never know what you might need to do.

Dan-

Thanks for that posting! Very good read! Good info!

Dave-

I was actually going to be flying around with rear radius rods to keep the rear stout, stong and IN PLACE! I don't want that sucker deciding to dance around on its own at any time.
I'd say this should take care of any issues, would you agree?

Do you have any photos of your car you speak of that had that trans fix? Very interested to see some of that stuff you're talking about!

Thanks

I thought I'd share these with others who might be comteplating building a racer in a similar fashion with quarter eleptic springs. I believe the photos are of a mid 20's Chevy frame.

Something that came to my mind when looking through your pictures was to make sure that the front and back are dropped about the same so that oil can run down that internal oil line in the engine. Or, just add other lines.

I saw that you have some pictures of a car in the Speedway Museum in Lincoln, Nebraska. If you ever get a chance to visit, be sure to take it. Some say that it is better than Indy.

Does anybody have a pair of 490 chev stub axles as in the above photo they would like to sell? I am after a pair and they dont seem to come up on ebay or any other sites.
Regards Lindsay..

Lindsay-

Get in touch with the Chevy Club of America and they'll be able to help you out. For Chevy parts, best place is a Chevy club or group of people. Always best to go to specified collectors or enthusiasts.
I dealt with a few of them and they'd been very helpful.

I'm very surprised you haven't found an axle on ebay. In the last 6-7 months I've seen about three I can remember come up. Wish I knew you were looking as I could have passed them on to you.

Is a chevy 490 a 27-28 or 29?
Lindsay,email me about the parts.I might can help you out or at least you might could tell me what I have.I have a trailer I use each year on the model T clubs overnight tour full of firewood that has a complete 28 chevy front end under it.

Jason,I admire the work you are doing.As with me your shop is well lite in the daytime and leaks when it rains.But you still get the work done!
I aint sure I would go that radical with a build because i have a tendancy to want to drive on the road with my t's but I appreciate the desire to preserve history.
And 1 part of that history that is being lost is the Americans desire and abilty to work with what he has to build from scratch what he wants instead of burning up the Lexan Loan shark at the store.

I'll be bringing a complete 490 front end to Chickasha, has springs 1/2 up front and mounts to the frame on rear of the 1/2 springs, front axle and the spindles on both sides, w/ T front wheels hubs on them so they are not rusty. Fred Houston and Mike Bender have both been sent photo's over the years (speedster fellows) but the pc is still here. I also have a 490 gas tank, top bows for touring, and a hood if anyone is interested I'll throw them on too.

Mack,

490 Chevy's were built from 1916 to 1922.

Joe,

I think that frame 1922 or earlier, I don't think
Chevy used quarter elip. springs after 1922. I may
be wrong about that.

Lindsay,
I have a 490 Axle in the attic, I may have two.
If you can't find one I would rather trade than
sell. I don't have too many T parts.

While we're talking Chevy,I'm looking for a pair of front steering knuckles (spindles) for a 1923-27 Chevy car. They look like a 26/27 Model T except that the spindle is higher up on the body giving a little more drop. Thanks

Joe,


I went look in the attic and only have one 490 axle. The other is a 28. Don't believe I have those spindles. Best of luck to you.

Johnd,

If I make it to Chickasha I be looking for you.
Those top bows might be something I need in my
business. Thanks.. Dex

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quote:

Mack Jeffry Cole-

Jason,I admire the work you are doing.As with me your shop is well lite in the daytime and leaks when it rains.But you still get the work done!
I aint sure I would go that radical with a build because i have a tendancy to want to drive on the road with my t's but I appreciate the desire to preserve history.
And 1 part of that history that is being lost is the Americans desire and abilty to work with what he has to build from scratch what he wants instead of burning up the Lexan Loan shark at the store.

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Dave Willis-

I have a personal question for you regarding wheelbase and some things you said about the cars you built.

Click on my name, and email me so we can talk off the forum.

Oh and would anyone know for sure if it matters if the frame / wheelbase is shortened by taking off the appropriate length of frame from the front or rear of the frame? I would be much easier if I took off the needed 10" off the front, sliced the torque tube & drive shaft subtracted the same amount, instead of taking it off the rear and having to deal with re-aligning the spring mounts, redilling the frame for them, etc.

Whatever needs to be done I'll do,... just curious if it makes any real difference??

Did a little messing with the frame, found the cross member I inverted and was going to use was a little messed up so I'm playing with two other ideas for that.

Then I shortened up the '25 Chevy Radiator Shell. Just need to fill in the slices I needed to make in order to readjust the sides and align the bead going around the inside. A little more messaging into place all over it, then going to properly sand blast it, and finish weld it up,... doing any asthetic work with lead instead of plastic filler.

Hope these help, its' still too cold for the lights to work in the barn. Once it warms up a bit I'll measure the clearance and amount of drop on the Z bracket

What thickness did you use for the spring mounting plate (the Z plate...)???

I know the recommended thickness as per the old reprints in the Fahnstock book are 5/8" but I won't be bending that up anytime soon! I was thinking 3/8-1/2" maybe? I was thinking 3/8" with some stiffening would work well.

I made mine from 1/2" HRS. I avoided CRS to minimize cracking and used the smallest radius press brake tooling. The depth of the "Z" on this one is only 3" but it was meant to be used on a setup like yours (and mine) with a rear crossmember. I think (its' been awhile) but I bent it with some caster added. You can have this one if you can use it (for postage) to move your project along.

Thanks Joe! You're a swell guy!
I emailed you,....

Again, much thanks!

Going back and forth on some ideas and setups here.
Worked a wee bit on the T project today.

Working on the layout of the body,.. still making some basic wooden metal shaping bucks, etc.

Jason,
What diameter steering wheel is that?Did you get it on ebay? Coming along nicely im enjoying your build up photos.

Jason -- You might want to consider a second seat. Since your car will be such a Babe Magnet, you'll need a place for them to ride.

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quote:

What diameter steering wheel is that?Did you get it on ebay?

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quote:

You might want to consider a second seat. Since your car will be such a Babe Magnet, you'll need a place for them to ride.

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Jason,

I saw this absolutely beautiful early '30s sprint car at the Justice Bros. Museum in California and thought of your project.

I don't know if this picture is of any value to you, but it's a great-looking car.

Where is the JB museum?

Ricks,

It's at 2734 East Huntington Drive in Duarte, CA 91010, (626) 359-9174.

A wonderful display of old race cars, some classic '34 -'37 Fords, a dragster or two. It's about the best race car museum I've ever seen.

Rough area though, the place is surrounded by steel fences and they keep the doors locked and you have to be buzzed-in. I wore my flak jacket.

Directions:
From the 605 Freeway, drive north toward the 210 freeway. Take the Huntington Drive exit at the end of the 605 freeway, instead of taking the 210 East or West. Turn right at the signal light and drive east 6-tenths of a mile. It is on your right after you pass through the Las Lomas intersection.

Thanks,Bob. I'll be sure to stop in, next time I'm up that way.

Forgot to say: It's free.

Wonderful photos guys! A+!

More J.B. Museum...

Bob Robb-

Wonderful photos!... wonderful place it seems!!

Thank you for posting these!!!

Rob, can you post a larger picture of the blue car in your last post? Jerry

That's the same one that really caught my eye also. Looks a little older than the rest based on components, etc.

The two large exhaust outlets look like the engine is an ELTO 2 stroke.

OK.
The blue car two posts above it - a rear view-is the same car

And this is as large as it'll allow me to post.

The last two.

Still working on this thing as time allows...(which hasn't been much lately).

Hood partially done, belly pan (need to make a new one, hot happy with first attempt,) spring being made up front, working on skeleton for body to fit to, and have been figuring out the linkage for the hog's head so I can use the clutch, etc. from underneath instead of on top as was stock....

Side view,... (yes its "only" a rough-in of the finished product, still more refining to be done later....) Not going to be using a starter either,....
Starting will be the good 'ol-fashioned hand crank or psuh-start!
I wanna get back to the roots of the Model T (hopefully without breaking a wrist though!!!) :-0