Could anyone with a b series block and the original car body from 1912 please email me?

Alex, I owned one several years ago (B-332). Although the car was titled as a 1912 it was really a very early 1913 body. I still have some pictures. E-mail me if I can be of some help.

B-series engines were assembled in the summer of 1912 and began to be installed, in random order by serial number, beginning in October 1912 in the then-new 1913 cars.

Have emailed you Jeff - Thanks

Hi Bruce - the colonial B series research I have suggests you maybe fairly well right for US but not for Colonial exports. Australian and NZ examples have some 1912 body styles/all brass etc.

Anyone with any pics of bodys for B series email me and I will keep a record of the info.

Alex,

We've discussed this before, but just to restate the obvious for those just joining the discussion, the B series blocks were all made and used in Fiscal Year 1913, which began in the summer of 1912. Also, again restating the obvious, Canadian and branches and Australian body style changes lagged behind Dearborn somewhat. So those cars may have had some styling cues or entire 1912 type bodies, but would have been 1913 production in Ford's view.

I know that you are trying to establish an exact precedent for building a car that fits the engine block, but there is no cut and dried formula that Ford would have used or that any branch would have used for the car your engine came in.

You can see the B serial numbered engines being shipped as completed cars in the Accounts receivables records as late as spring 1913, possibly later as I only looked at a portion of the shipping records on my visits to the Benson Ford archive. They were not leaving the factory in any sort of order, you could have 10,000 units or more between two cars in the same shipments.

This means that your engine could have been installed in a car in September 1912, or March of 1913, or maybe it was sold at a Ford dealer as a replacement engine in 1915. Who knows.

Again, just trying to fill in the blanks for those just happening upon this new discussion thread, with the understanding that any existing B engine not reported to one of the earlier threads on the subject would be interesting to hear more about.

Hi: Alex
some month ago we bought a 1912 touring with
engine # B 169106, I have not seen that car by myself she is standing in the US now and waiting for transport to Holland.
Till now I dont have pictures on my computer
to send them to you

Greetings TOON

Royce,
The substance of your answer is absolutely bang on, and clearly you have spent time looking into the matter.
However, I would say one thing. Canadian bodystyles did not lag behind those of Dearborn. From the outset (1904) Canada produced their own bodies, using contractors. Indeed there is good evidence to support the notion that some of the improvements made to the US-made cars had actually originated from the Canadian operation!
With the exception of the bare chassis, sold by Ford from 1913 for commercial applications such as delivery vans, light trucks etc all exports from Canada left the factory as a complete car ( with full body). It was not until 1917 (would need to check for exact date) that this changed, but for the Australian market only (new Aussie legislation required an Aussie-made body to be added to any imported motor car chassis).
At the time the B-series engines were cast, Ford of Canada was still buying complete motors from Detroit. Clearly the B-series engines got mixed up with all the other regular engines in the store. My understanding is that Canada would order what they needed from the parent company, and I guess the Detroit chaps working in the Detroit loading bay would simply take nearest and handiest motor to complete the order, regardless of where it was made, when etc to complete the order.
As I understand it, we will probably never know how many of the B-series engines went off to Canada (or to Britain, for that matter)?
John Stokes
New Zealand

Hey Toon- Will email you when I get home tonight.... Would like to keep in touch once it arrives in Holland.

I have info on about 6 B series cars now but the more the better picture I can get

Cheers

Ps. John-if you saw the Green 1912 Mother in Law in the Beaded Wheels recently on the front cover...that originally had a B block in it. A very interesting car

John Stokes,

In 1913 Canadian Model Ts were offered with the open (no doors) roadster body style which was cancelled in the USA in 1912 model year. Also, Canadian Model T's continued to be produced with all brass (Classco Brand) lamps well into 1914. However US made Model T's were being produced with brass and steel (Victor, E&J, Corcoran, Brown) lamps as early as May 1912, well before any of the B series engines. This illustrates the point I make about the Canadian bodies and components not reacting to changes made at earlier dates in the USA.

In Australia you could have received cars from either the USA or Canada. Since we are talking about a car being built to benefit an engine, I see unlimited possibilities given a 9 month or more window of opportunity and two seperate and distinct styles of production.

I am not trying to confuse the issue, just saying that the possibilities are nearly endless for a Model T with a B series engine.

While at the Benson Ford I was researching, among other things, the time frame for my 1912 and 1913 tourings. I was fortunate enough to find the shipping record for my 1913 touring, so I know the exact day it left the factory, which was about a week after the engine block was cast.

However, similar serial numbers to mine were being shipped as much as six months later, indicating Ford did not attempt any control of engine assemblies that would guarantee anything about the relationship between casting date / serial number and the engine or car leaving the factory.

Royce,

Since Canada was building what was essentially a replica of the US-designed car, I don't disagree with any of what you have said, and there is plenty of evidence to support what you say. But differences did occur and, as Canada became more and more independent of Detroit, more differences evolved.

As an example of an early difference, we have found a photo of a 1909-10 Canadian right-hand drive Touring Car with a fore door, which seems to be factory-designed and fitted one.

It is clear the B-series engines were fitted to cars in no particular order, over a long time span, which opens the possibilities for body styles now.

BUT, with the exception what few private imports might have arrived, I do not believe the Australian market (or New Zealand) received cars made by any other branch of Ford other than Ford of Canada. So if Alex is looking for what would have been authentic in NZ at that time, he must look to the body styles Ford of Canada was building, not the USA (or, for that matter, England) but which might, in fact, be virtually identical anyway.

Best wishes.
John

For more information on the B-serial number engines see the article at:
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/11-12Ser.htm

Note in that article B-1,330 is listed as shipped in a car Aug 28, 1912. And B-597 is listed as being shipped Sep 26, 1912. So a few were shipped early – and with the missing ledgers we currently don’t know when the actual fist B engine was shipped.

Alex, you might want to have the Benson Ford Archives search their Accounts Receivable records [the same ones Royce located his serial number in] to see if B-95 is list. If it is – then it will tell you the date the car with B-95 was shipped (not necessarily the date it was built – but it would be the date or very close to the date). Note several of the ledgers are missing and for the earlier cars they have about a 1 in 4 chance of listing a particular serial number. Much better odds than winning the lottery – but not something that you would want to stake a lot of money on them finding the number.

Also for previous history on this question of what body would be appropriate for a B-95 block see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/36425.html?1194340610

You could easily assemble it with all 1913 USA style parts and the engine will fit well with that year. Or you could do the same with 1913 Canadian style parts rhd for NZ or lhd for Canadian and imported later and again the engine would fit well with the car. You could also put late 1912 style USA or Canadian parts with the B-95 engine but you will probably have several folks asking if that is authentic or not. As I have shared before – I believe it might have been possible – but I don’t have enough documentation to prove it happened. As you continue to research this – you may be able to document it better as you gather additional information. Good luck with search and please share the other photos when you have a chance.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC

Thanks Hap....

Yes at this stage not looking to debate the B series info more just looking to speak to anyone with a B series original car. I am 100% confident in how I am doing my car.

Will be in touch and still working on scanning the 1911 Canadian stuff for you but these things take time!!!

Do you get Beaded Wheels?

John,
I would love to see that photo you mentioned showing the 1909-10 Canadian RHD Touring with a fore door!!!

Don - it is included as part of the manuscript for the forthcoming book. As said, it looks to be factory designed and fitted - the rest of the details on the car have been used to date it. We hope we're right! Cheers - John

John it is interesting to note that made in USA has not been ground off the block or the head...

Alex - as I understand it, the grinding-off of 'Made in USA' did not start until 1913. This was when Ford of Canada began assembling their own motors. The blocks were cast in US and then sent over the river to Ford of Canada for machining and assembly. This better met the tariff requirements of the Canadian Government and explains why 'Made in USA" was not ground off the motors in the Canadian cars built before 1913 (I think this was from approx mid-year 1913). And this may explain why there is still confusuion that some of our earlier Model Ts came from the US - they all came from Canada.
John

Those 1913 Canadian machined and assembled engines with the ground off "Made in USA" used a "C" before the serial number. When the "Made in USA " was ground off it was done quite crudely. I have two blocks with Canadian serial numbers below 10 000; they both have 1913 casting dates.

TO the Benson Archives then.....

Has anyone used their offsite services? I see it is $35 US an hour-not bad at all.

Royce/Hap how orderly are their records and how long would this sort of search take?

Alex,

I only have one copy of “Beaded Wheels” and that is the Oct – Nov 2008 with the Model T Centennial information that John Stokes so kindly sent to me.

It is late, but I know that Royce either posted and/or e-mailed me about his adventure at the Archives. From memory – the Accounts Receivable Ledgers are hand written. The early entries i.e. 1909 and earlier are easier to read as the folks were not as rushed to fill out the paper work. As time went on --- the cars kept being produced faster and faster and it may or may not be related, but I believe Royce shared the entries became harder and harder to read as the years went by.

The ledgers that contain those serial numbers are orderly -- BUT they are organized by Ford Dealer and not by serial number. So you have to check all the ledgers to find all the listed 1913 shipments etc. I'll post some more information on that tomorrow.

We will look some more tomorrow or Royce who is usually more organized than I am may have it readily available and post it before I get back to it. Key point – for the early cars it is approximately a 1 in 4 chance that they will find a ledger containing your engine’s serial number. I.e. they are missing many of the ledgers. For example – our 1907 Model S Runabout serial number is not listed. In the case of the NRS cars – they shipped them in approximately the serial number order. I.e. the numbers were usually with in a 100 of each other and often much closer than that when they were shipped – – because they only produced a few thousand of most of the cars and just over 6000 of the Model N Fords over the 3 year period. But the B engine numbers clearly skipped around a lot (as shown in the partial listing at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/11-12Ser.htm which was taken from those same ledgers. Note, I’m the one who encouraged Royce to look for his engine number in the ledgers. It worked out well – he found it. But if he hadn’t found it, he might have been a little frustrated at my suggestion. But so far there has not been enough interest to try and capture all the numbers and put them into a database. Trent did that for the 1903-1908 Fords [available on Bruce McCalley’s CD “Ford: The First Six Years” at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/mccalley.htm ]

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout

Thanks Hap,

I believe that is the right copy of beaded wheels. It has a green commercial roadster (Mother in law) on the front. That commercial roadster originally had a B series block.

John--Let me know when the book comes out-Please!
Throw in a couple of Towncar photos and you have sold your 1st copy..modelttowncarclub@yahoo.com

G'day blokes,

Just to add my 5cents... Engine number B 597

The Made in USA has been ground off so it had to have come from Canada, as an empire country they hadn't the trade barriers that the US was subject to. with that in mind I'm assuming that just as soon as the Canadian operation was running, they became the sole exporters to Australia. Though there were a handful(?) of direct private imports.

We built a 1912 van from scratch after finding a B series engine in a T model scrap pile in suburban Adelaide many moons ago.

It was in such poor condition that the front and rear water jackets as well as the rear main bearing had to be welded, the rods and crank were cut out, the bores were cracked driving the pistons out so they had to be sleeved, the valve seats cut well oversize, every thread was helicoiled and so on.

Knowing the local police officer was a car nut we had him send the trans shaft off to forensics to raise the date. So the trans was built on the 26 Sept 1912.

As for the body, it's a replica of a Duncan and Fraser Van that we assume was put onto a secondhand car chassis of about 1912 vintage. We have a very good photograph of this vehicle and scaled the body from it.

We have many cars in Australia that are considerably earlier than 1917 with locally built bodies. I'm guessing around 1912 so it wasn't just a wartime tariff but I think there was to be 7 or 8 locally built cars for every complete imported motor vehicle, hence we have very few US style Canadian bobdies and even fewer closed cars. Though the 1915 tourers I have seen are fitted with a drivers door

Hope that adds confusion... lol

cheers

Hap,
It seemed like a year and a half ago when we talked about the 1913 serial numbers and production of the "300,000" car on July 16, 1913, the 12,450 or so "B engines" needed to be in 1913 production model cars. Otherwise, the numbers would be off.
From the four year discussion y'all have had on the forum, looks like the "B" engine is a little too late for a 1912 style car unless you wanted to put forth a hypothesis. And, like you often say, anything could have happened. Interesting discussion for sure and I remain impressed with the knowledge you guys have on a myriad of topics about the Model T.
Ken

Original head and side lamps (Jno all brass-were actually nickled when first found). Original clamshell 1912 12 rivet diff and 2 piece torque tube.
1912 Heinz coil box
Brass dodge brothers steering gearcase and spider
7 rivet sump
Also the colonial radiator...larger tank size
The original body that come off it although well rusted was a 1912 type commercial roadster

Although some of this car may or may not be 100% original the above are definitely original when the car was found.

Hopefully the following is helpful and may answer some questions....

Don - thank you for that - the book WILL have Town Cars! Clearly you will need more than one copy - sons, daughters, friends, parish priest, wives, girlfriends - as I see it, they'll all need at least one each.

Anthony...
1. It is my understanding that "Made in USA" was ground off from a date in 1913, when Ford of Canada began assembling motors (they began casting their own in 1919). Before that, when motors were arriving from Detroit already assembled, there was not need to scratch off the 'Made in USA'. However, once they were maching and assembling them in Canada, I guess it was reasonably correct to say they were made in Canada, even though the raw parts still came from the US.

2. Off topic, but....
In 1912, amongst the Ford range of body styles was the Delivery Van. When that was discontinued, it became possible from 1913 to buy a bare chassis (which included hood (bonnet), fenders (mudguards) etc up to the cowl (firewall). This was to appeal to commercial users, who could fit a purpose-designed body rear of the cowl. That was from 1913.
Other carmakers would offer the same. Needless to say, some of those bare chassis also had car-style bodies fitted and, in NZ, those became known as 'Colonial' bodies. Because the Ford distributor in NZ was called The Colonial Motor Co, there is a misconception that these NZ-made bodies came from them; but they were built by a variety of coach-making firms throughtout the country who were happy for the business to replace the drop in demand for horse-drawn vehicles.
Possibly one was able to buy a bare chassis from Ford of Canada before 1913, but I have not seen any evidence of that.

Love the photos!!

John Stokes

************For Anthony,
I assume that the comment "Knowing the local police officer was a car nut we had him send the trans shaft off to forensics to raise the date. So the trans was built on the 26 Sept 1912." was posted to bring a smile -- and it did. If B-597 was shipped on Sep 26, 1912 as the ledgers at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/11-12Ser.htm recorded, then it would be almost impossible for the engine to have been produced and warehoused for even a day – which apparently the B series engines were warehoused for more than a day. At: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/11-12Ser.htm Bruce states: “ Note that the serial numbers are not in numerical order. It appears that engines were built and placed in a storage area, and were then selected at random for installation in a chassis. Sort of a "first in, last out" situation, particularly when it came to the "B" numbers. The "B" engines were built at another plant in Detroit and were shipped to the assembly point, so it is easy to see why they were not used in a numerical sequence.” Please confirm that you added that Sep 26, 1912 date in jest – or let us know that you actually did find a date stamped on the tail shaft and it was the same date as recorded the B-597 was shipped [ref: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/83447.html?1235978004 where they show how many of the early engines were dated also page 106 of Bruce McCalley’s book, “Model T Ford.” ]
************For all,

I have looked but I have not found my files on the B-engines. I’m 100% sure that several folks were kind enough to post and/or send us some photos of B-engine serial numbers. I would like to verify if other B-engines did or did not have the “Made in the USA” ground off.

On the Frontenac Motor Company web site at: http://www.modelt.ca/ click on the “Ford of Canada” link on the left – go three paragraphs down and they imply that prior to 1913 the “Made in USA” was already being ground off the block if the car was assembled in Canada.”

But from page 26 of the Jul – Aug 1968 “Vintage Ford” in an article on the Canadian Fords by Jack Bray with information provided by Herman Smith the Historical Consultant for the Ford Motor Company of Canada they stated:

“Up to May, 1913, the U.S. serial numbers were
used, presumably because t h e motors were all
cast in the United States. However, starting in
May of that year, a new numbering system was
used, starting with “C 1”. Some of the engine
blocks of this period can still be seen with the
“USA” ground off, but still readable, so it would
Seem that the rough castings must have been
imported for a while and machined in Canada.
From 1914 [see note that follows] on, “Made in Canada” is plainly cast
on the blocks.” [Note later research by Bruce McCalley indicates that the USA supplied blocks continued until around Dec 1919 ref page 539 Bruce McCalley “Model T Ford.”]
Depending on which one I read and how I read it I would expect all “Made in USA” to be removed from any engine that went into a Canadian assembled Model T to only after Ford of Canada began assembling their own engines using the USA block – they started grinding off the “Made in USA.” (Note when Ford Canada began casting their own engines they had “Made in Canada.”) If someone could shed some light on when Ford of Canada ground off the “Made in USA” that would be greatly appreciated.


************For Alex,

Thank you for posting the photo of the green 1912 that when found had a B series engine. I still think that if someone could locate the customs import logs for around 1912-1913 it could shed a lot of light on the subject. I.e. it should say when serial # B-xxx was imported etc. Is there any additional history on the car available so we could ensure the B engine and the 1912 style body were originally supplied or not? Note under their restoration section the Frontenac Motor Company web site at: http://www.modelt.ca/ , under “restorations” on the left hand side, discusses how Ford of Canada for 1911 continued the older style body past when the USA went the metal clad body.

I love what Roger Gardner the author of "Ford Ahead - a History of the Colonial Motor Company Limited" said once, "Ford Canada sent all the old obsolete parts to the colonies." I don't know if there is much documentation to support or correct that statement -- does anyone else have any information one way or the other? I suspect the time it took to ship a car from Canada to NZ or AU would make the car at least 4 weeks behind and probably a couple of months behind. And if they had an older style body -- sending it out of the country could make sense?

I looked but I still haven’t found the information on where to look at the archives for the account receivable records and who to work through. I will keep looking and when I find it I will post it (and if it takes a while I’ll e-mail you to say it is posted).

************For Ken

Thank you for the kind words – there is so much to be rediscovered and fortunately there are so many who are willing to help us relearn what only 90 years ago was common knowledge to many Ford dealers.

************For John,

“In the Shadow of Detroit.” On pages 68 – 72 you will find the Ford Canada export sales for 1911-1923. In 1911 1,157 chassis are shown going to Australia, with 1,862 in 1912 but none going to New Zealand until 1914-1915. Ref:
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=THOyZ5JwkEQC&dq=In+the+Shadow+of+Detroit+ Roberts&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=89R4K-ry6f&sig=1-bMOgfkYKMSO5Uych8Cgx 8oQmU&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPP1,M1


Respectfully Submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC

Hap,

Bear in mind the car above which you refer to as a "green 1912 that when found had a B series engine" is likely a 1913.

Canadian Model T's with the open commercial runabout body style were manufactured well into the 1913 model year, and were called 1913 models by Ford of Canada if built after June 1912. If this car truly came new with a B series engine, it is a 1913 Model T.

Ford of Canada continued the use of all brass CLASCO brand lamps and carbide generators into the 1914 modle year. Black and brass lamps and carbide generators and windshields were found on 1912 model year US manufactured model T's, predating the use of black and brass components on Canadian / Australian / NZ / Canadian export Model T's by a couple of years.

Here's a late '14 CLASCO lamp:

Hap,

I would question the figures given in "In the Shadow of Detroit" for exports to Australia, on the following basis.

The table shows that NO passenger cars whatsoever were imported to Australia for 1911-12, but 1157 chassis were. The same happened in 1912-13 for Australia - 1862 chassis, No passenger cars again. I do not believe that to be histrically correct, and strongly suspect it is an unfortunate typo in the publishing.
In 1913-14 (the year it became possible to buy a bare chassis) the table shows 2266 cars exported to Australia, and 360 chassis.

You will see the trend given in the table for the New Zealand market is more in keeping with what Ford was offering. Unfortunately the table runs out before it gets to South Africa (Ford of Canada's third biggest market) to see what it says for that market. I have the complete table somewhere and could check.

Kevin Mowle and I have also tried to reason that and other differences in that table with a similar one provided in 'American Business Abroad', but failed! So, like so much with this jigsaw, all we can do as a result is read between the lines.

Best wishes - John

John-how many cars does the book say were imported into NZ in 1912... Official numbers according to Ford I believe were 637?

Alex,
The graph in "In the Shadow of Detroit" says 586 for 1911-12, and 830 in 1912-13. Those are fiscal years and, to complicate matters further, the Ford of Canada fiscal year changed in 1912.
Best wishes - John

Ford imported 637 cars into NZ for 1912 but this would be calendar rather than fiscal year.

Can I pose my question another way maybe....

If a block was cast on 13 Auguest 1912...what USA serial number range would it be expected to have?

Then the follow on is once we have those numbers...which must be round the approx 150000-what bodies do those cars have?

Alex - where did your figure of 637 come from?

Official NZ Advertising 21 Dec 1912

Alex - off topic, but now I'm getting really interested! Do you have any other annual sales figures? Were these advertisements placed by The Colonial Motor Co? If not, who placed them? Look forward to learning more - if appropriate, we should start a new thread or email me directly.
John

I will take a look tonight when I get home and see what I have

So many questions -- so little time. Thanks to all who have been contributing and those who have been looking and thinking. I'm still looking for items -- such as "When did Ford Canada start grinding off the "Made in USA" on the engine block? Did they do it to complete engines prior to May 1913 or only the blocks they assembled?" I've run across lots of neat things while looking, but not the answers related to this topic.

Respectfully still looking,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

A question for you then Hap - is a car around USA serial 150,000 (Casting date Mid August) 1912 or 1913

In regards to the grinding off my head and block both have the USA not ground off

John - Can't find any other production figures sorry. Thought I had more but cant find anything. Will let you know if I find anything

They must have been quite popular in NZ at the time

The Famous Canadian Ford in 1910 - way off track but another interesting ad

Alex,

I wish there was a very simple “black & white” answer to your question.

Bruce McCalley on page 197 of “Model T Ford” illustrated the issue well with the 1915 Fords. This information is for Ford USA [I don’t have the dates for Canada and UK – if anyone does – please let us know]. Ford USA introduced the new 1915 style Sedan in Sep 1914. But Ford continued to produce the 1914 style touring at all plants. Then in Jan 1915 Ford began producing the new style 1915 touring but only at the Highland Park plant – while many if not all the Branch Assembly Plants continued to produce the 1914 style touring. And many states registered the date of the car as being when it was sold – so the year of the car on the title could be either depending on which state the car was registered and when. There was at least one person who purchased a car but waited a few days or weeks to register it so it would be in the new year. When new – most folks wanted to call their car by the newest year if possible. But as antique cars most owners (not all) prefer to call their car as old as possible. [Suggestion for those who have been consistently winning the “oldest car” in attendance awards. Bring your car but don’t put it in the running for that award – it can really make the day for someone else.]

So during that transition time the same engine could be placed in one body style and called a 1915 or the other body style and called a 1914. And at some point – we normally go ahead and call it by the year it was manufactured if the same model is continued. For example the Model N Ford was produced with only minor changes between 1906 and 1908 (probably a few in 1909 but considered 1908 Models). So one that was produced in Jul 1908 would not normally be considered a 1906, but instead a Model N produced in 1908.

And then the Antique Auto Clubs all add a little more to the equation. The Horseless Carriage Club of America (great group and has done a lot to help preserve the early history of cars – including many Fords) uses the guideline that to be a voting member (not to tour and have fun but to be able to vote to change the constitution etc.) that a member must own a 1915 or earlier car. But they consider a 1916 body style produced in 1915 as counting for that requirement and they consider a 1915 body style produced in 1916 as qualifying for that.

So back to your original question, “What would I consider a USA produced (not Canada) serial #150,000 (Casting date Mid August). I would not base the model year of the car solely on the date of the engine. If it had the Delivery Car body – I would refer to it as a 1912 Delivery Car (ref page 141 Bruce McCalley “Model T Ford” The Delivery car was a “1912” model built in late 1912 during the 1913 fiscal year.”) In the case of the touring car if it actually came from the factory with a late 1912 body – I would refer to it as a 1912 but if it came with the early 1913 body I would refer to it as a 1913. I would suspect most would have been the 1913 style body by that time – but there could have always been an exception.

Now the more difficult question probably is – if I had a USA mid Aug 1912 engine block what year model car would I build around it? If it was going to be a low budget low effort speedster – I would not worry about it at all. Build ahead. But if I was trying to make it as authentic as practical – I would probably be doing the research you have been doing and wrestling with the same issues – should I build up a 1912 style or a 1913 style. And for New Zealand – building up a car is one of the few options as there are not as many complete cars there as say the USA. By the way – others will have just as valid or even more valid opinions. But hey – you want to know what your friends think. And I think you will have one very nice car no matter which way you go with it.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

PS -- And we left out the more difficult question -- what do we do with those examples that Ford produced that are not in the "main stream?" For example see page 482 of Bruce McCalley's book "Model T Ford." Note the Jul 20, 1909 shipment of 3 Model S Roadsters # 3710, 3711, and 3,719. We have no clue how many odd examples Ford may have had. He tended to use up the old parts. And there is a great picture of the Ford Garage, in Rifle, Colorado where an agent had a brand new 1913 body in his parts display. What do you suspect he did with that body if it was still there when the 1914s were starting to come out. I would think it went on a chassis. And that is one case where I would thing the body date would be several months earlier than the engine/chassis date -- when a dealer installed such a body to move it on.

Hap,

In the case of a delivery car, Ford had 1912 delivery cars completed sitting around taking up space. My understanding - John Regan could verify this - is that those delivery cars sold in FY 1913 were built around December 1911, and were simply leftover hard to sell stock 9 months later. I would not expect a delivery car to have a serial number much over 98,000.

Alex - thanks for the newspaper clippings. They make for interesting reading.

I think Hap makes really good points about the model years. Indeed, the more I read and learn the more I am convinced there was no methodolgy applied by Ford to allocating the oldeset items first to new cars. An engine is an engine is an engine! "Take one, put it in, drive it away" I think I hear them say. But I guess that "just do it" attitude was a method, when you think about it!

This may interest all. I have seen a 1939 Ford Bulletin to US assembly workers, advising of an alteration to the styling of the front fenders for the 1939 V-8s. The bulletin specifically states not to be concerned about mixing the two styles and, if you run out of the old-style right side fenders leaving a surplus of lefts, or vice versa, do not ask for more of the old - just keep using them until they've gone! I see no reason why Ford would have been more organised in this regard back in the days of the T.

I did not know Ford found themselves with Delivery Vans sitting unsold. I guess that explains why they were only produced for a relatively short time; and, as they were replaced by sales of a bare chassis, once in the hands of a body builder they would have had a much wider market.

The more we learn, the less we know!

Best wishes - John

Royce,

Thank you for sharing and all the support you give to me and our hobby. You asked an excellent question which brings up another piece of the puzzle. I believe the discussion will help others have a better feel for how Ford probably did things and help them make a more informed decision about their cars. I looked back through my notes and I have the following information which John Regan previously posted about the Delivery Cars.

"Ford built 2485 Delivery Cars according to most published info. The peak production month was actually in December of 1912 which means those where 1913 Models. From my [John Regan] research it would appear that Ford contacted Beaudette and told him to stop making them and must have cut a deal to take whatever was left that the body maker had because Ford took delivery on a bunch of them in December of 1912 and then announced they were discontinued. Ford initially had projected 5000 of them to be built and sold for 1912 but probably decided why bother with an item that was not presold like all his other production was at that time."

Hap again -- Unfortunately, the posting above appears to have been one that was lost or at least when I do a search for it, I cannot find it now. But at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/22986.html John has: “Ford only built about 2485 of them [Delivery Cars] in total although the peak production month was in fact December of 1912 (1913 Model officially).” In that same “Saturday, January 06, 2007 - 02:24 am” posting he also stated: “Bruce clearly pointed out that the 1912 data was interpolated data assuming a flat rate of production and apportioning a quantity of cars per month...etc. That data was always presented by Bruce to be best guess possible from the given data. “

Hap again -- Does anyone know if a Mr. T. J Satterthwaite of New Zealand still owns a 1912 style delivery van? Also if that car has a local (Colonial) body or if it was an original Ford Delivery Car style body? And yes, it is a leading question as it probably has or had a B-numbered engine.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

In the past, we have discussed on this forum the subject of when production of the 1912 Commercial Roadsters and Torpedo body styles ended. I believed there is evidence that the 1913 Touring body style begun sooner than the other body styles and the 1912 Torpedo may have been assembled as late as the end of October.

Excerpts from MTFCA Encyclopedia:
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AUG 27 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
Orders being accepted for all models except the Roadster.

SEP 28 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
Prices (1913 models?): Touring, $600. Torpedo, $525. Delivery Wagon, $625. Town Car, $800.

OCT 28 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
Torpedo Runabouts sold out. None to be available until January 1, 1913.

DEC 1 Ford Times
1913 Runabout shown.
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This implies to me that at the end of August 1912, the new roadster body was not ready. The new style runabout may not have been available until January 1913. Note that the Delivery Wagon is still being priced at the end of September. The Torpedo is same case.

I would be interested to know if anyone has an original 1913 roadster/runabout with a B-series or pre-Jan. 1913 engine. Following is the ad that I have posted before showing the 1913 Torpedo.

John Satterthwaite sold the van about three years ago to someone in the Otago area of the South Island. I am pretty certain the Van body was a more recently built up job done as a complete restoration in the early 1990's. Incidentally, I have on record 8 B-series engines as presently recorded as sen in NZ or owned by members of the Model T Ford Club of New Zealand, all pre-B5000. My own 1913 Roadster is C6448 and has the "Made in USA" ground off. I run the register for the MTFCNZ and there are presently around 600 vehicles that are usable, from the early 1910's to the later 1927 vehicles.

Rod,

Would you be able to email me the member names of those vehicles? Especially any you know may have original body parts etc?

Thanks Alex

For Rod,

Thank you so much for posting and confirming that John Satterthwaite’s van probably had a later reproduction body. I wonder if he choose to use a delivery van because he liked it or if there were any clues that it may have originally been a Delivery Car? More questions for later.

Does the MTFCNZ have a forum or some easy way for someone to ask a question? If so, who could I contact to pass along my question, "Do the Canadian cars with engines prior to the C serial numbers (which started in May 1913) have the "Made in USA" ground off or not?" Note according to Bruce McCalley's "on-line encyclopedia" Ford USA did not start adding the "Made in USA" to the blocks until some time around Apr 16, 1912 (T400C Added "Made in U.S.A." to side of engine. see: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/E.htm#eng2) so the earlier cars would not have had that on it but those produced between Apr or so 1912 and before Ford of Canada began assembling their own engines would have been supplied complete engines from the USA with "Made in USA" on them. I'm trying to figure out if Ford Canada ground off the "Made in USA" when it was already on a completed engine. Again thank you so much for your help.


For Alex -- please keep me posted on what you find concerning the 1912 or 1913 original body styles on the B-series engines. A documented original 1912 style body with a USA Dec 1912 or earlier engine number would be an excellent fossil find to support you theory. However, the hard part will be the "documented" original. However some cars do have the original bill of sale that has the engine number and that with a picture of the proud new owners would be the same information you needed even if the car no longer existed.

For Rick – do you remember where the information about the 1912 roadster/runabout body style being continued is located? Your link to the encyclopedia provides some good clues. But it appears several folks are stating that Canada continued the 1912 roadster/runabout body much later than when they switched over to the 1913 style touring body. That was done on other occasions in both Canada and the USA where the touring got the update such as the introduction of the slant windshield several months before the roadster received the new update. (Canada 1920 and USA 1923 models).

For everyone, I wish I could find the photos of the B-series engines I thought I saved. If I remember correctly it showed that side of the engine and that the “Made in USA” was or was not ground off. Did anyone else save that posting or know the web address for it?
Thanks to all of you for helping us gather a few more pieces of this puzzle.

Warm Regards,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

Hi Hap,
At present the MTFCNZ does not have a website or forum (although our last AGM approved setting one up). Many of us members can actually be found on this forum, so I am sure some will pick up the question.

I will see if your question can be added to our next newsletter with your email address for replies if you would like. Can you send me your address through my profile?

Cheers
Adrian

Hi Hap,
At present the MTFCNZ does not have a website or forum (although our last AGM approved setting one up). Many of us members can actually be found on this forum, so I am sure some will pick up the question.

I will see if your question can be added to our next newsletter with your email address for replies if you would like. Can you send me your address through my profile?

Cheers
Adrian

Hap,

It is my understanding this car has been verified correct by Ford of Canada Archives which are no longer avialable/ready access to them. I will confrim this next time I see the owner.

The whole purpose of this thread was to invite owners of B series engines to email me and I can only conclude from the 2 responses that most B series engines are now boat anchors or machine gun bullets.

Hap,

To answer your question, I can't find any specific evidence to support my supposition. However, I did find some more clues from the MTFCA Encyclopedia. Following are some quotes from the Model T Encyclopedia under “a comprehensive description of the Model T Fords of a given year” (for 1913) at:

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1913H.htm

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The Runabout (or Roadster) body with a metal turtle deck was introduced a few months after the new touring. The December 1912 Ford Times showed the new style. Apparently Ford continued the 1912 style Runabout with the “mother-in-law” seat for a time, for in February 1913 the company issued a letter in which they stated that only the new style was then available.4

Notes:
4. There appears to have been considerable overlap in 1912 and 1913 production. Original 1912 cars have been seen with black and brass lamps, steel-frame windshields, imitation leather upholstery (in part) and the “1913” rear axle. Some of this may have been due to some cars being assembled at Ford branches as well as at the Highland Park plant.
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In addition: On the Model T Encyclopedia under “a chronological list of changes in the Model T” it contains the following quote for FEB 4. It seems to me that this is saying no more roadsters will be produced with the “Mother-in-law” seat. If that is correct, then the 1912 style commercial roadster was produced until 04-Feb-1913.

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc13.htm

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FEB 4 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives Runabouts supplied with turtle deck only. "No rumble seats."