Bronze thrust washers and gear lube

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2009: Bronze thrust washers and gear lube
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 04:52 am:

I don't want to start another war here , but something has always bothered me about the bronze thrust washers and the 90WT. gear lube story(debate?). I am by no means an engineer or lubrication expert of any kind, but I am from MO., so I have to be shown! I have read all of the posts about how the 90W. type lubes (sulphur bearing) will/can attack the bronze thrust washers in the rear ends and the ring gears in the TT's. What I want to know is why that type of lube was used in the Eaton type 2 speed truck rear ends that used a bronze shaft in them, the 3 and 4 speed transmissions that used bronze synchronizers, winches such as Tulsa and Braden which use bronze ring gears, and many industrial gearboxes that use bronze ring gears. Is this something that has just become known in the last few years? As I said, I don't want to start another war, I just don't understand the problem. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 06:04 am:

Hi David - yes this is a topic to create debate, and one debated a couple of weeks ago on the forum in some detail.

Seems there are two schools of thought - one each way!

My guess, not being an expert myself, is that it maybe that bronze used in early days may have been a different brew to later receipes - or with more contaminants than later technology?, and so is perhaps more suseptible to erosion than later bronze.

Maybe or maybe not ?

In any case, I use 140W modern "non-EP" oil in my TT diff. The local oil specialist says the "EP" additive in modern oils is what attacks bronze, and as good TT rings are hard to find in New Zealand where I live, I would rather be safe than sorry.

Cheers
Adrian


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 08:39 am:

I use synthetic gear oil, as it doesn't stink of rotten eggs like the hypoid oils..

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:00 am:

Does the "600W" available from A and T suppliers contain the EP additive?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sven Jakobsson on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 12:18 pm:

I will consider this oil (se link) when I put my back end together again. It seems to come from UK, but it is available here in Norrköping/Sweden also, at a reasonable cost. What do you think?
http://www.penrite.com.au/pis_pdfs/PI_Transoil%2090%20140250l.pdf

Best regards, Sven


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 12:24 pm:

I don't worry about it. I just get in and drive. Couldn't be any worse that the babbit washers in the original rear ends. I'm quite certain that if the bronze washer fails it will be slowly, and I will be aware of it before any serious damage is done. I could be wrong, but so far nothing catastrophic has happened to me nor to anyone else that I know of.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 01:22 pm:

Somewhere I saw what seemed to be good information. It was that some rear end lubricants do attack brass and bronze BUT at such a slow rate that it would take several hundred years for a problem to develop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By aaron on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 01:41 pm:

The stuff (Penrite) that Sven posted about has got to be the most "correct" for a T differential.
For those worried about the GL5 staining the the bronze I would say just get some GL4 gear oil. The parts store I deal with will get it for me anytime I want. Yours car too if they will take the time to do it.
I would say (guess) that the 600W does NOT contain EP additive. I would also say a T does not need it when running lube that heavy.
Why not just get some 140 GL4 and not worry about it anymore?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By cecil paoletti on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 02:07 pm:

Adrian, wish I was in New Zealand. I have a like brand new TT ring gear, the low speed type unfortunately. If any fellow TT operators get desperate enough for a ring gear to pay the freight get in touch with me. There seems to be no interest in the ring gear around here.
Take care, Cecil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 08:58 pm:

600w is steam cylinder oil. It is what I buy by the gallon to use on my 1914 Minneapolis traction engine. In the early days of steam power, before they got oil out of the ground they got it out of wales. It clings to surfaces well and stands up to heat and water very well. You can hardly wash it off with a hot pressure washer. In the days of Model T manufacture it was a good choice because petroleum products were not near what they are today. True 600w will get rancid over time. My guess is the 600w that the A and T suppliers sell is a synthetic steam cylinder oil.
As far as the sulfur in EP additives eating brass or bronze; I have been using the regular old 90w140 in all sorts of Spicer, Eaton, Fuller, Rockwell and any other make of truck and tractor transmission and differential you can think of for 40 years and I can't say I have seen any erosion. On the other hand, Valley recommended we use sulfur free lube in the worm drive gear boxes on our center pivot sprinkler. In them I use AGMA 8.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:19 pm:

Randy, as it was explained to me the reason the steam cylinder oil was fat based (tallow) was for the same reason water pump grease is, It gets cross contaminated with the water in the system. Animal fat has a quality that when it is heated it will flow with the water, where as, petroleum based grease forms little balls and in the case of using petroleum based in the water pump those little balls plug radiators.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 01:43 am:

Thanks guys. I am using synthetic gear lube in my TT now, but got to thinking about all the other aplications that use the old 90W. type lube, hence the questions. The synthetic is OK, but was very pricey where I got it. Next time I think i'll go with 85W- 140 or something similar. Thanks for all of your input. Dave


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