Has anybody tried this system in pre-generator Ford? I only have a motorcycle battery in my 1911 powering indicators and stop light only. Can it be made to run on the magneto?

Bittner sells a solid state voltage regulator that hides under the floor boards. It takes the AC magneto voltage and give you a nice steady DC to run the True Fire, and also keeps your battery topped off. You can't run the True Fire directly off the magneto. It needs 6 or 12 volts DC. I have it my 1912 which has no electric anything except the True Fire running. I only have to charge my battery (12V lawn mower battery) during the winter when the car is in storage. It's a very nice system, and has been trouble free for two years.

A superior battery charger unit is available from Fun Projects.

Click here:
http://www.funprojects.com/products/hsbck1.cfm

I agree with John G. with one exception, there have been many reports of True Fire not working well with a 6 Volt battery.
The combination of a 12 volt battery and the Fun Projects battery recharger Royce mentioned and you should be OK.
Ron the Coilman

Ron, I have never heard of anyone having trouble on 6 volts. I have two cars that run perfect on 6 volt. I would like to hear from those that have had trouble and not hearsay. Thanks Mike

Mike
Perhaps coming by way of me it is hearsay to you, but it isn't hearsay to me. I got it first hand from the fellows who had problems with 6 volts.
I am not running down True Fire just telling you the facts as I received them and I was told that the manufacturer acknowledges under certain conditions it happens.
Ron the Coilman

I've heard (no personal experience) is a True Fire system works on "6 volts". BUT if the voltage falls due to the battery becoming discharged and/or while using an electric starter the True Fire system may not work.

Why is the Fun Projects charger superior?

Dave
Just some simple electrical circuit engineering in case of a failure.
The TrueFire battery charger circuit modifies the output waveform of the magneto in such a way that original ignition coils will not work correctly and if the main rectifier diode fails the entire battery voltage is impressed onto the magneto terminal. You understand the result of that.
The FunProjects battery charger kit also has a diode rectifier, but it is in series with a bulb that, if the diode fails shorted (and they always do), there is insufficient current flow at the magneto terminal to demagnetize the magnets.
Ron the Coilman

One other significant difference that the Bittner folks don't tell you unless you ask is that the Fun Projects magneto-powered battery charger will work properly with timer and coils, but the Bittner one won't. Theirs works with their Tru-fire unit, but not with the original Ford ignition.

Ron, My point here is that if you have a electrical system of 6 volts that is in good working order it wont matter whether it is 12 or 6 volts. I would think that the trufire system has a voltage regulator in it that feeds the the trufire with the same system voltage know matter what the input voltage is. It without a dout will not work with a dead battery. It will work fine if the motor will turn over with battery tho. Mike

True Fire works on 6 volts - yes, personal experiences.

Coils will also quit completely when the battery voltage reaches a certain level of discharge. It will act like someone shut the ignition switch off.

Tim:

You are correct that original coils being current operated rather than voltage operated will work down to very low voltages so long as the battery can supply the 1.3 Amp RMS current. As little as 2.5 Volts will supply enough current to fire a T coil but a 6v battery is "dead" at that voltage and will not turn over the engine with the starter.

Its sure nice to see positive discussion with honest answers on this subject.
I listen much better!

I have had my 6 volt battery so low that the starter would not turn the engine over but I was still able to handle crank the car and it started right up with the True-Fire.

I know you all will think I am biased, but I talk to supply several Model T parts suppliers and repair shops on a daily basis.
Their unsolicited comments are TF has a inordinately high failure rate when new and the source of many repair requests.
It doesn't affect me one way or the other if you buy TF, but those are the facts.
Maybe you will have better luck?
Ron the Coilman

In defence of True Fire
I know of six people, including myself, who have installed TF. Five of us had trouble at first and none of the trouble turned out to be the fault of the TF. My trouble turned out to be because it was too far advanced. We are all a little sheepish now but more than satisfied with our TF's.

In defense of Ed Bittner's Mag-VR charger, I have to say that I think the Mag-VR is a better choice than the Fun Projects charger in this case where David Chantrell would be using his mag to charge the battery that powers his True-Fire.

The Mag-VR is a full-current charger and it has voltage regulation, both good for this application since the True-Fire probably draws more current than the Ford system and the Fun Projects charger may not provide enough current due to the light bulb.

True that the Mag-VR when it reaches the point of regulation interrupts the output and Ford coils will misbehave but that doesn't matter to anyone using a True-Fire. Voltage regulation so that the True-Fire doesn't get too much input voltage should matter to them.

If Mr. Bittner provided cooling to both the SCR and the rectifier just downstream of it - which is how I think it works, then there's no reason in my mind that both of them will short and put the magnets in jeopardy even without a 5-10 amp fuse that I would use with it.

I have no commercial interest in Bittner Engineering and have nothing to gain here, but I think the Mag-VR is a better choice charger in this case.

Seth

Seth says ---- "If Mr. Bittner provided cooling to both the SCR and the rectifier just downstream of it" -----End Seth quote

But he doesn't, does he Seth?

Seth says ----- "the Fun Projects charger may not provide enough current due to the light bulb." --------End Seth quote

What are you basing that statement on?

Well Royce, the thing comes in a die-cast aluminum package I believe and that would be plenty of cooler in my opinion.

I said "may not...". The Fun Projects charger is not a full-current charger - it can't be with the light bulb resistance in the circuit.

The Mag-VR is full-current. It's only losses come from the one or two diode voltage drops times the RMS current.

If the True-Fire requires LESS current than the Fun Projects charger is capable of putting out, then on a long drive the battery's voltage may go well past 15 volts and this excessive voltage may damage the True-Fire.

I recommend the Mag-VR with a 5-10 amp fuse for this application - as I said before.

Seth

Seth
I suggest you get a copy of the circuit schematic and analyze it, then you would understand that it doesn't work the way you think.
Ron the Coilman

Thank you to everybody for all the feedback. I am concerned that you have to carry 4 coils and a timer spare in case of failure anyway. The feedback about their reliability also seems to be mixed. The general consensus seems to be to stick with Henry's original system and then you only have to carry one spare coil.

David, carry a set of coils with your T. You or one of your touring buddies might just need one, anything can happen with a T and usually does.

David-
I think you have come to a good logical conclusion after reading all the discussion!. I have no doubt that the truefire does improve running/performance of the T but so it should being a modern alternative. I have also seen a few failures of the Tru fire and had to loan my spare coils and timer to get people home. At worst if one of my coils fails I can still get home on 3!
On another note,for the Forum readers, David Chantrell has written a wonderful book about the 'Duncan & Fraser' coachbuilding business and the family who were responsible for building some of the best looking bodies ever put on a model T chassis in Australia.
Warwick.

I'l second that Warwick;)

In fact I'll add that Duncan & Fraser built some of the best looking, simple, stong, best appointed and most comfrtable bodies for the model T ever, anywhere!

Cheers

AB

Thank you for the kind words. For anybody interested I am starting to build a website about Duncan & Fraser, which can be found at www.duncanandfraser.com