Attached is a circa 1912 photo of enigmas for the experts. What I have thought about the cars so far is (from left to right):

1. unknown. It has what appears to have a nearly diamond shaped emblem on the radiator cowl, which makes me think of a REO. Not sure what it is though.

2. 1908-1912(?) Ford Model T Touring. I do not know how to tell these 4 model years apart. Can anyone help?

3. Again, a 1908-1912(?) Ford Model T Touring. Which is it?

4. 1910 Brush Runabout (?) - This is my guess based on the only Brush runabout I've seen other than this one. I've never seen a 1911 or '12 so don't know if there are any differences.

Okay experts... what are they?

Thanks in advance!

P.S. A close-up of the first car's emblem/radiator cowl:

The two Model T's appear to be typical 1911 vintage. The T on the left has E&J lamps, the one on the right has JNO Brown lighting equipment.

From the way the tops are folded & that they have door handles I'd guess the Fords are 09 or 10. Have no idea what the larger car is, Brush's were a bit smaller than Ford's, had a wood front axle with coil springs, also don't think they had an emblem on the radiator shell, just "Brush" in brass mounted on the radiator.

Yes, fourth car appears to be a 1910 Brush Model E-26 a ten horsepower model

How can one determine the difference between the 1910 Brush Model D and E? Is the wheelbase different and/or what else? Thanks!

Alex,

I believe Royce is correct about the two Model T's being 1911s. Note they both have the two piece front spindles that were introduced early in calendar year 1911 (ref Bruce McCalley’s book “Model T Ford” page 79 or http://mtfca.com/encyclo/F-H.htm#fr1 where it states Jan 31, 1911 ). Also the 1909-1910 rear doors had that body molding line that continued from the rear seat across the rear door and lined up with the bottom of the front seat. But the 1911 touring had a smooth rear door. The 1909-1910 also have a door with more cure than the 1911 models. All three years and into the early 1912 model year had an external rear door handle on the USA cars (probably Canada also). But they do look similar. Note the 1909 and many of the 1910s did not have the reinforcement bar in the lower part of the radiator and also had shorter radiator filler necks than the later 1911 radiators. At http://mtfca.com/encyclo/P-R.htm#rad under 1911 it has “Higher cast filler neck style which was introduced in summer of 1910. About January, 1911, a hole for the choke rod was added to the left front side trim piece.” If you have the original picture to look at you may be able to see those additional details.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

Note the dip in the front axle and those front springs on the first car. I'm thinking Locomobile, about 1905.

What do suppose that pipe coming up through the splash on the big car is?

Hudson?

The brickwork on the building looks like its painted on a flat surface?

I think that pipe is an exhaust whistle set-up.
The Brush looks just like the '10 Brush that the Calif. State University, Chico has. A very fun car to drive, BTW. The axles are wood! Rear is chain drive, before someone wonders how the rear could be a wood axle.
T'
David D.

Well I zoomed in on the crank handles. They don't look shiny like aluminum,they could be black like bakelite on the 09-10 cars. But that is a hard one because it could be a flash thing going on there.
Zooming in on the spindles is difficult also but I lean toward one piece spindles. The photo gets congested around the spindles.
The man with his hand on the brake lever in the second model T looks like my dad when he was younger. He was born in 1913. That doesn't prove anything.
But there is a sticker on the second model T's windshield. I got one like that at a car show last year. So it must be a fake photo that was staged.
Herb

Thanks, Hap, should have gone to the book, it's six feet away, but didn't take the time to get out of the Lazy boy.

Ralph, looks like it might be an exhaust whistle, once saw one on a Packard that was mounted that way. Hudaon had a lower radiator & would have a white triangle on the radiator. Stretching it, but may be a "regional" car, with low output & sold within a 100 pr 200 mile radius & little history remains.

Alex

John, based my guess about the Brush Model E-26 on model shown at the Swope Car museum web site.
I believe you are correct in that the models D and E are very hard to tell apart wheel bases were 74 and 80" respectively.

I can add close-ups if anyone needs them. BTW, this is an original photo on a 1912 Calendar.

Has anyone thought of something like a Haynes, Premier or National 50? The belted bonnet, right-hand drive and front suspension may be unique?

The car on the right looked a lot alike one I saw at Iola this year. I looked thru my pictures and it turns out from the sign on it that it was a 1909, a little earlier than the one pictured in the group shot. What interested me when I was looking at it was that it mentioned it had a wooden frame and axle. I had never seen that before.

Kevin

John,

I just checked your profile and I noticed this is your first forum thread. WELCOME! You may have posted before with a different user name or something -- but I always like to tell folks, "Welcome to a great group of folks!"

Are you looking for your first Model T Ford or do you already have a barn full of them and been driving them for the past 50 years?

Yes, please post a close up of the front spindle area for the Model Ts -- as that combined with the "new shine" they both have will let us know if they are before or after around Jan 31, 1911.

Again, welcome aboard and thanks for posting the photo.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 19l5 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and l907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.

This thread is really weird to me. Just last week a friend I and were talking T's and he told me he had a 1908 Brush, I told him I had never heard of a Brush. So he invited over to see it. Wow what an amazing car. It is one cylinder, cranks reverse from a model T and the spark and throttle are reversed, yes the axles are wood and this one is chain drive. It uses a KW switch. I can get pics if anyone is interested? supposedly the second car in Paris,Tx

How about a close up on the sign in the window to see if it can be read?

Let me know if these aren't large enough. Having difficulty getting them below the 200KB limit. Can e-mail them directly if anyone desires larger close-ups.

To answer your question, my Dad was the real collector, I just enjoyed his (although, I have been driving T's since 1955 - photographic evidence below of me driving Dad's 1926 T Touring with my sister along - haha). My real passion is historical photographs.



Best regards!

Everitt cars (part of EMF, part of Studebaker) used a diamond shaped radiator emblem. They had many similarities to the car on the left.
Great photo.
Chris Paulsen
McPherson, Kansas

I just noticed the car on the left is Right Hand Drive......still don't have a clue as to what it is??

Attached is the "sign in the window" close-up. This is at 2400 dpi. I'm thinking it is advertising a "Demonstration" of some kind on Aug. 14th. Maybe some early air show?

John,
I'll join Hap in welcoming you, We all truly enjoy old photos.

Hap, Several years ago I read where Billy Durant had a luncheon meeting at the Ponchetrain Hotel with Henry Ford, Brush & Ransom Olds around 1910 in order to entice them into forming a conglomerate, I can't remember whether to join GM or a seperate group in competition (Durant was in & out of his relationship with GM it gets confusing), Obviously nothing became of it, Brush worked with Leland wth the self starter for the Cadillac then started Oakland (which was the mother car for Pontiac in the late 20's) Ford as we know opened a small service station in Highland Park Mich. <grn>. Olds was quite successful with REO. Billy Durant ended his life managing a Bowling Alley.

Alex

After looking at several other Locomobiles, I'd say my first guess of 1905 is wrong. Based on the fenders, I think this one would be 1909-12.

It's interesting to note that Kevin's photo shows the Brush with Left Hand Drive, which Ford is given credit for switching from RHD to LHD with the Model T, most American cars switched around 1913, except for Pierce which kept RHD into the mid 20's.

Kevin, that's one nice-looking Brush! Yes, wooden axles and wooden frame, and coil springs on all four corners. Engine runs backwards, and many had a counter-rotating shaft to help balance out that one-cylinder engine. The Chico State's Brush has a radiator shell, no brass (although they loaned it out, and the guy had the shell plated, because he thought it should be brass--late Brushes had a lot of features eliminated to cut costs). An interesting car with a two-speed transmission too. the engine cranks "backwards" so you'll avoid a "Ford fracture" while cranking with your right hand. I'm left-handed, so that wasn't much of a safety feature to me!
T'
David D.

Herb,

There is no possibility either of these Model T's is a 1909 or 1910 model.

Model T's used the palm destroying molded rubber crank handles well into the 1912 model year Herb. The aluminum handle came around the fall of calendar year 1911, several months into 1912 production. People who didn't wear gloves were thankful.

There are many other features that identify these cars as 1911, particularly the bodies. For example, the sheet metal rear doors with no center trim were only used in 1911 - early 1912.

The headlamps on both cars are only used in 1911 - 12, but the JNO Brown Model 60 cowl lamps were only used in 1911.

The style of top bows on both Model T's was only used in 1911 - 1912.

09's and 10's would have had the winged script on the radiator also. I couldn't get zoomed in enough to see the spindles. I agree they are 11's
Herb

I believe the big car is a Corbin,possibly Model 40,1911.I'll try to do a little research.

I don't think the car on extreme left is a Locomobile. Their badge was a square with an L and a tree; not a diamond.

I agree with Chris, that the left car is an Everett.

Again,subject to being wrong,I beleive what appears to be a diamond emblem on the radiator. is actually the Corbin 'C' which surrounds the 'orbin'Secondly,I know the whereabouts of a Corbin.The steering wheel on that car is deep-dished just like the one on the car above.Google John Lothrop mvtimes to see one like it.Only picture of a Corbin I have come up with-yet.Thirdly,I owned a Flanders and most of an Everitt and extra parts.None of the steering wheels were dished.I plan on going to visit the old fellow that has the Corbin.He is a bit touchy about his old cars and stuff.He ran Barney Pollard off at gunpoint.I would have bought a ticket to see that,but I wasn't born yet.

As I remember, There was a rival group to General Motors. It was called, I believe something like United Motors. This was in 1910-12. I believe that the Brush Company was the part of the group and the last make sold by this group. The 1912 ALAM-NACCA books lists the brush as being sold by that company. I will take a look this evening at my set of ALAM-NACC books and see how the brush is listed 1911-12. The 1912 Brush is an interesting vehicle,

I believe all Corbins, especially of the 1906-1911 era had a hood and radiator that came to a very distinct point at the top/center. It does not appear that this car does.

Respectfully,

Chris

There is a 1909 Corbin at URL:

http://www.sealcoveautomuseum.org/1909corbin.html

It shows Corbin's logo appears somewhat diamond-like or icthyos-like (Christian fish symbol). Looks very much like the mystery car's emblem.

Although probably a bit earlier than our mystery car, some features are continued for several years, so we see the 1909 Corbin also has the following features similar to our mystery car:

- a dip in the front axle
- the deep-dish steering wheel
- front bucket seats

It will be interesting to see a later model Corbin to see if the pointed hood and radiator cowl changed and other unique characteristics visible (e.g., front suspension, belted bonnet, flat fenders, etc.) in the mystery car.

I concede.It is not a Corbin.As Chris points out,all Corbins had pointed radiators and hoods.I made a call to the man that will eventually inherit the Corbin I know of,and it has a peaked hood,too.

1909 Everitt:

There is a photo of a 1910 Everitt at:

http://classiccars.about.com/od/classiccarphotogallery/ig/Keels-and-Wheels/1910E verritt.htm

The Everitt's diamond logo is pretty clear.

Although the hood and front suspension characteristics are somewhat different from the mystery car, many other features are similar.

I think Jackson nand Inter-state used diamond-shaped emblem during the same time period.
I haven't had a chance to look for photos of those, but it's an idea.
Chris

Yes,Chris, I believe you have it-Jackson.I know they had the belt on the hood.I attepted a brief internet search,but anything I entered with 'Jackson' did not lead me where I wanted to go.Off for a T ride.

Actually I believe the car is a 1911 - 12 Chalmers, which was very similar to the Jackson.

Royce, Are you sure the green car you posted is a Chalmers? It looks like a Thomas to me. I think Chalmers in 1910-11 used 10 spoke front wheels and curved front fenders like the catalog picture you posted.

Here is a Jackson photo I found online. I'll try to look through my photographs later for more Jacksons (or other possibilities).

Respectfully,
Chris

Wow Chris!

The image you posted is the best fit I've seen to the Mystery Car:

1. Deep-dish steering wheel
2. Dip in the front axle
3. Flat fenders (and apparently similar sweep)
4. Diamond radiator emblem
5. Radiator has beveled bottom corners
6. Similar distinctive pattern (seen better in the color photo, first link below)
7. Similar radiator filler cap height
8. Full elliptic spring suspension
9. Crank handle attached to right front headlamp(wonder if this came with the vehicle or owners had to buy their own bungie cord due to annoying vibrating cranks?)
10. Belted hood
11. RHD
12. Similar lighting equipment (as far as can be seen)
13. Ball-shaped hub cap (similar as far as can be seen)

Does anyone have a close-up image of the diamond emblem? This would be very interesting!

Following are a few photos that seem to bolster the Jackson's claim on our mystery car:

1909 (doesn't have the radiator cut-offs but has most other characteristics - shows the radiator mesh pattern very well):

http://www.prewarcar.com/show_article_photo.asp?id=3336

http://img.prewarcar.com/prewar/cars/Jackson_1909_500RB.jpg

http://www.prewarcar.com/read_article.asp?id=3336

There are several differences (advancements?) in this photo indicating it is a 1913 Jackson Olympic 5-passenger tourer:

http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/j/13jackso.jpg


Below is a great ad for the 1909 Jackson concerning it winning the Wheeler-Shebler Indy 300 Trophy:

URL where it is found:

http://www.firstsuperspeedway.com/sites/default/files/Marmon_National.pdf



(as an aside: Jackson sues for the trophy):

http://www.firstsuperspeedway.com/sites/default/files/Indianapolis_Speedway_First_Race_17.pdf

...and then back to the svvs photo:

http://www.svvs.org/help20.shtml

There's a gorgeous Jackson on display at the HME, Holiday Motor Excursion, every year, but I can't find a pic of it. By the look of its engine, I figured it to be a really high priced car like a Pope or Thomas, which we also see there.

rdr

A friend of mine in St. Paul specializes in Jacksons and Fullers. He owns a number of Jacksons including a large touring like the one shown.

I'm pretty sure that the car in the picture is a Jackson Model 40. The giveaway is the relatively undersized wheels compared to the overall size of the car and fenders. In the mystery picture, note the substantial distance between the top of the front fender and the top of the front tire and compare it to the picture below.

Also, note the fully elliptic front springs.

Erik Johnson

Chris,

The green car is identified as a 1911 Chalmers in the movie "Polyanna". The Chalmers and the Jackson were both produced in Jackson, Michigan and may have shared body suppliers if not chassis parts due to shared vendors.

Here is another screen shot of the same car:

To add to Royces comments -

As Jackson continued to manufacture automobiles, they produced larger and more powerful cars.

However, there is no comparison between a Chalmers and a Jackson. A Chalmers is a much more substantial automobile compared to even the largest and most expensive Jackson.

Erik Johnson

Forgot to say the car is certainly a Jackson!

Here is a picture of a Chalmers Detroit that someone brought over to display on the CO/Wy tour.
Rick

Great photos!

Two more questions:

1. Is there any way to determine the exact year of a Jackson (e.g., the Mystery Car)? I see that Erik's photo is a 1910:

http://www.ecollector.com/index3.html

2. How would one determine the Mystery Car's model? Was the 40 a 40 Horsepower? Was there also a 30 or 50 model?

An interesting aside, in the Jackson photo at the URL address below, the exhaust whistle is coming through the splash but appears somewhat different than the Mystery Car's plumbing arrangement.

http://www.prewarcar.com/show_article_photo.asp?id=3336

John,

I've seen the whistles in different configurations. The Packard I saw had 4 highly polished horizontal brass whistles coming out of the splash, I think the position was left to the whim of the owner.

Alex

Found this reference at the following URL:

http://bentley.umich.edu/research/guides/tradecatalogs/tradecat_search.php?colle ction=1

Michigan Trade Catalogs
Catalogs of Michigan-based automobile companies

Jackson Automobile Co., Jackson, Mich.
Jackson model "27" [1912?]
Jackson model "30" [1912?] (3 copies)
Jackson model "38" [1912?]
Jackson model "41" [1912?]
Jackson model "51" [1912?] (2 copies)

Now it would be great to find a copy of the Jackson brochures/catalogs for the 1910-1911 range and/or an expert that knows all the details of the model variances.

On some of those early shipping invoices for the 09-10- and 11's don't they mention Jackson tops being installed on the cars?
I wonder if that is the same company.
Herb

Eric Anninger weighed in to clarify a couple of items on his 1910 Jackson, seen at URL:

http://www.ecollector.com/index3.html

He indicates that :

1. his car is actually a 1910 Jackson Model 30, the title on his website is accidentally wrong,

2. its headlights were switched out sometime, and

3. it has 30"x3" Model T wheels on it now (probably installed in the '50s when it was hard to find the original 32"x3.5")

...otherwise it is stock right down to the floormat that has Jackson pressed into it.

His car has a hemi OHC engine and he indicates that in 1911 Jackson began using Northway's.

Additional photos Eric graciously provided of his Jackson:

A generous expert who wishes to remain anonymous sent the following Jackson scans from the 1911 ALAM catalog.

The illustrations of the 1911 Model 30 and 41 have been combined to help identify their differences (mainly rear door/door handle and rear fender/body designs) and show that our Mystery Car would probably have been a Model 30:



1911 Jackson Model 30 page:



1911 Jackson Model 41 page:



And for completion's sake, the rest of the Jackson line.

1911 Jackson Model 51 page:



1911 Jackson Model 25 page:



1911 Jackson Model 38 page:

The car is deffinatly a 1910-1911 Jackson "30", the eliptical springs up front give it away...something the Chalmers, Thomas, REO, etc don't have.

The Brush is a 1908-1910 Model D. The difference between the Model D and the E was the body design. The D carries different fenders and the seats are more forward with a higher angle on the steering. The E has the "sporty" fenders and the seats are pushed farther back on the body to allow for a lower steering column angle.

Model E


Model D

I'm surprised the Jackson has jump-spark ignition, which was even more obsolete than the buzz coils.

Is there any chance Henry had jump-spark ignition in mind when he developed the Ford magneto? That could eliminate the buzz coils, huh?

rdr

I wonder if there is an illustration or a photograph available of the diamond-shaped emblem that we see shadowed in the original Mystery Cars photograph? Haven't seen it in the modern Jackson photos or anywhere online.

It is amazing the amount of knowledge and expertise represented in this thread. I imagine each thread would make a good chapter in a reference book about brass-era motor cars!

Some Jackson photos at this site:

http://www.brassauto.com/brass-pages/index.htmlhttp://www.brassauto.com/brass-pa ges/index.htmlv

Herb