Hello all.
The paint on our Tourer is pretty thin in some areas such as the upper parts of the fender curves, already showing the gray primer underneath. There are many chips and scratches on the doors and body. I don`t think that she still has the original paint, so I guess touching up the surface wouldn`t hurt.
Although a friend who is a professional restorer is currently checking the paint chips for their composition and age. In case it is the first original coating, nothing will be done of course.
Has anyone tried to apply Japan Black to the T`s body and fenders without a spray gun?
I don`t mean the garden-hose procedure but with a very soft, high quality brush maybe?
Somewhere in the www I read that you should apply a hardener to the gilsonite paint, but I forgot where it was. I tried some minor scratches on the inner edges of the fenders (where the hood has scraped the paint off) without hardener and it seemed o.k. for me.
Any comments very much appreciated,
greetings from Germany,
Bernd
Bernd,
During the time, body paint shops would use a fine Camel Hair brush.
Alex
Alex,
thank you. I will ask at the local paint shop. Otherwise the art store should know. Can`t wait trying it on a sheet of tin.
Bernd
Depending on the year of your Model T, if you really wanted to be authentic you should dip the fenders in paint and then bake the enamel (I realize this is not feasible).
A friend of mine here in the Twin Cities has a fully restored 1906 Model N Ford. He painted the body with a brush and it turned out quite nice.
A high quality China bristle brush is required for oil based enamels and varnishes. Because the paint sets up quickly, the trick when brush painting oil based enamel is to use a minimal amount of brush strokes during application. You want to flow the paint on - allowing it shrink and self level as it dries, which will minimize the appearance of brush lines.
According to my father, the oil based enamel that he purchased in the late 1940s and 1950s flowed smoother, set up better and dried slower than the paints available today. According to him, it was much easier to apply and self leveled much better.
To get a smoother flowing paint, you could try using a paint conditioner such as Penetrol.
http://www.floodco.com/paint-additive-solutions/products/view-product.jsp?produc tId=11
Erik Johnson
Minneapolis, MN
Erik,
thanks for the link and the advice. It has always surprised me how glossy, almost mirror-like the T´s came out of the plant with such a crude method of applying the paint. I understand that fenders and runningboards with the dipping and baking method would look perfect, but what about the upright faces of the body? Why were there no varnish tears?
Thanks again,
Bernd
"Varnish tears" I never heard that description of paint runs, but it's apt. They're often matched by tears on the painter's face. Is that a literal translation from Deutsch?
I've read that Ts often came with sags, runs and "tears" from the factory.
Per the Gilsonite comment, I guess you've been around the Forums long enough to read Reid Welch's research. Too bad he gave up on it.
rdr
I have new old stock fenders hanging up in my garage that my dad picked up over 50 years ago. The paint is shiny and essentially flawless; however it doesn't have the depth like modern paint jobs. It reminds of the paint on my old Erector sets and Tonka Toy trucks. (Tonka Toys was originally based in Mound, Minnesota. I toured the factory when I was a kid approx. 35 years ago. They used the dipping method as well as electro-static methods.)
My 1917 roadster has it's original paint and runs are visible.
I'm pretty sure that most of the runs were smoothed out and minimized at the factory with a brush, immediately after the paint was flowed on.
If you read pages 361 and 362 of "Ford Methods and Shops" copyright 1915, it is mentioned that brown metal primer was spray painted on the bodies and, if needed, smoothing out and touch up was done with a brush by a man with a "critical eye." After the primer dried it was sanded. The subsequent color primer coat and finishing coats were flowed on and a brush was also used on on certain spots. The paint was rubbed or "mossed" between the color coats.
Erik Johnson
Ricks:
the german word for it, I mean the paint runs is "Lecknasen" ("dripnoses") or "Laeufer" ("runners").
I couldn`t imagine that it would translate literally, so I tried with "leo-german/english" on the net.
Thanks for the proper term, btw. I will now look for Reid Welch`s research.
Erik:
Thanks for the info. I didn`t know that painting the body involved so many steps. As for the paint runs, are they easily visible or just where the body meets the chassis?
Bernd
Bernd,
On Page 265 in Bruce's Book, he calls out the paint runs (actually like the term tears) on the "Rip Van Winkle" T.
Had a neighbor whose father was a paint & body man in the 20's & 30's, he told me they would paint the car with a brush vertically, after dry they would fine wet sand it to smooth, then paint horizontal.
Alex
You can paint with a ladies powder puff. Just dip it in the paint on only one side and go as you go according to the temperature and drag of the viscosity. Thin the paint with the proper solution and it will come out without any runs or streaks.
The last time I painted a car with a powder puff was in 1949. I have also used a Flitt hand pump bug sprayer with a little glass jar that screws on the bottom to do rather nice paint jobs such as dash bords and garnish moldings.
After I had enough money to purchase a good air compressor, I purchased a good used Binks spray gun and never looked back at the old systems but they worked for me at the time.
Bernd:
To answer you question about runs in the paint. One place that they can easily be seen on my unrestored '17 roadster is on the back of the seat, in the area above the trunk.
Erik Johnson
Alex:
thanks. I don`t have any experience with brushing paints on metal. Sounds like a great hint for applying paint with the brush.
Frank:
I spray painted several Citroen 2CV`s with an air compressor with very good results. The reason for trying the brush is the different paint and the hope for a look that might be closer to the original finish. Thanks for the idea with the ladies powder puff, that sounds feasible.
Erik:
Do you also have areas where the black coating looks rather thin, like on the top surfaces of the fenders or is it a thick layer throughout?
Thank you very much.
To all:
I still have to acquire Bruce`s book...
Bernd
"..spray painted several Citroen 2CV`s with an air compressor.."
That's far too good for a 2CV, Bernd. They should be treated like the Model T after they were a few years old.
I see ads now for milk paint. I wonder if it was ever used on cars? It's difficult to remove, maybe just because it's so old.
From Vandykes.com :
Old Fashioned Milk Paint is a re-creation of the original milk paint formula used for centuries before commercially manufactured paints were available. This durable authentic paint is available in a variety of historic colors and is an excellent choice for restoration or reproduction finishes. Milk paint is non-toxic, biodegradable and odor-free when dry. Milk paint is an ideal finish for children's toys and a suitable alternative for the interior of homes. Complete instructions are included. Milk Paint mixes with water in a 1:2 ratio.
rdr
Erik, please post some pictures of the N.O.S. fenders you mentioned, if it's not an inconvenience.
Dex
Is Ford's "Japan black" paint still availiable? What exactly is it? I too have seen shiney paint jobs in photo's, but I always thought the paint that was used in production was a very crude product.
My 1922 T Touring has original paint with runs.
The gilsonite body paint didn't last as well as the baked finishes.
regards,
Steve Boothroyd
Technically, I think "Japanned black" would be a more correct description than "Japan black."
The term "Japanning" pre-dates the Model T Ford and originally referred to the application of black paint that dried to a high gloss (giving the impression of high-gloss, Japanese lacquer).
Eventually, probably sometime during the industrial revolution, Japanning became the term to describe process of bake drying enamel, the result being a high gloss, durable finish.
For example, as described in "Ford Methods and Shops" copyrighted in 1915, body paint was air dried so that process typically would not be considered to be Japanning. The paint on other items such as fenders was baked dried - that process would be considered Japanning.
If you are interested, click on the link below to read a 1925 article about (then) modern methods of Japanning or baking enamel.
https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/33668/1/OS_ENG_v08_i04_009.pdf
Erik Johnson
Ricks:
Most 2CV Citroens were not treated well after they were bought. They were cheap, reliable, provided comfortable riding and had an excellent gas mileage, but in contrast to the Model T the steel was of a rather poor quality and very thin. This is not true for cars dating from the 50`s and early 60`s.
Applying a decent coat of paint on a later built 2CV is a considerable life extension. Galvanised chassies are also available.
Milk Paint? That sounds interesting.
Steve:
The restorer sent me a jar with Gilsonite paint that was readily mixed. As I´m currently not at my friend workshop I cannot look up the ratio of ingredients, but will do it later in the week.
The crushed Gilsonite, turpentine substitute, linseed oil and I guess a dryer (this is what I have to check out) are mixed in a magnetic stirrer for quite awhile. Some heat is also applied to it, but not too much as it might catch fire! This is what I have been told and I`ve not tried it myself yet...
Steve Boothroyd:
Thanks for the picture. Have you tried to buff up the body paint, or is it just too thin? I would probably fear removing the original coating...
Of course I don`t mean to remove the paint runs, these are original flaws documenting the speed of production :-)
Erik:
Great link, thanks for clarifying. Seems like there was a big difference between the body and fender paints as to appearance and durability.
Bernd
Black japan enamel available...
http://www.libertyonthehudson.com/pontypool.html
Thanks for the link, Jerry!
Regards,
Bernd
Bernd, I lightly cleaned the body surface to remove oil and dirt.
I then used a little fine compound and very lightly went over the surface to remove some of the oxidation; finished with a black shoe polish and buffed to give it a little luster and protect the finish.
Regards,
Steve Boothroyd
This scan is from my copy of the 1924 hard cover "The Ford Industries."
Steve:
Great idea to protect it with the shoe polish.
Darel:
"painting by the gravity flow method" really sounds easy and I really am eager to try it once I`ll be back in the workshop this week. For sure I will not try it on Lizzie`s body but on some banged-up sheet metal.
Thanks,
Bernd
Steve, I hate to tell you this but those runs are unlikely to be from the original finish. As noted in Darel's post, there were many inspections along the painting process. Bodies were base coated black before the upholstery was installed. During this transition, any repairs to the paint would would have been taken care of prior to the clear varnish coat. The clear was very watery and wouldn't have left sag forms as in your photo. If any were left in the finish, they would have been longer and not as prominent. Plus, they more than likely would be toward the bottom of the panel.
Ken,
this is new to me. I always thought that the last coat on the body also was a black Gilsonite coat, even when not baked like on the fenders. Of course the clear varnish would explain the very high gloss in some old pics.
Bernd
Bernd:
Read pages 360 through 383 of "Ford Methods and the Ford Shops" which can be accessed online.
http://books.google.com/books?id=TcAqZt9U4gQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Ford+met hods+and+the+Ford+shops%22
The term "varnish" is used throughout the description of the body painting operation.
In addition to be "mossed" between coats (similar to rubbing with steel wool) the bodies were also rubbed/polished with pumice prior to the final coat. As Ken Kopsky says above, the upholstery was installed prior to the final coat. Also, it states that retouch was done by hand. (There is even a picture showing touch-up with a brush on page 368.)
There is a lot of film footage of the Ford factory around, which over the years has evolved into "stock footage." Bits and pieces of this footage are regularly seen in various historical documentaries on public television in the U.S. I recently saw a short scene showing paint being flowed a touring body. Even though it was shown at the wrong speed, the paint appeared to be very watery and flowed quickly.
Erik Johnson
MInneapolis, MN
Erik,
thanks for the link. The pages do not show completely, as I understand because of copyrights. I typed in "varnish" and got some lines before and behind that term on the pages you described.
My fault was that by "varnish" I understood a very thin, "watery" coat but still black.
Yesterday I tried Gilsonite paint on a banged up trunklid of a different car, originally painted orange. I set the piece upright, brushed the black paint on and let it stand until you could touch the surface (still a little sticky after 30 minutes). I was surprised: No runs, virtually no paint marks, nice shine and very good covering.
Bernd
Sorry,
by "paint marks" in my earlier posting I meant brush marks, of course.
Bernd