Info Two piece timer, front cover, fan arm

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Info Two piece timer, front cover, fan arm
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gitts - Ferndale, WA on Tuesday, December 12, 2017 - 09:20 am:

I believe this is an original 2-piece timer, has good patina. Good shape, shows some wear inside. Roller looks good shape. Front cover appears to be a good reproduction, but is in excellent condition. Fan arm is a reproduction from Langs and appears to be well made.

$1,000 for the set, plus shipping. wnlag 145(AT)aol.com Thanks..







Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gitts - Ferndale, WA on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 08:44 pm:

Christmas price reduction:

$800 for the set and FREE USPS flat rate shipping to anywhere in the lower 48 states.

thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 08:53 pm:

Pretty amazing this set is still for sale after those repo brass timers sold at close to this price.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Martin on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 09:48 pm:

Sent an email, Les


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Poffenroth on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 12:40 am:

Plus Les is an awesome guy. No worries here!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Raymond Joseph Emling on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 02:20 am:

I will take it for $800. I will take care of payment in morning.
Thanks Ray.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gitts - Ferndale, WA on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 08:46 am:

The timer set is sold. Thanks very much.

Raymond, I'm sorry, but Dave actually contacted me first and it was sold to him. Again, sorry....thanks for the interest.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Raymond Joseph Emling on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 10:01 am:

Les, I am still looking for that timer and timing cover set up for my 1911 torpedo. Itís the missing link to make it complete.If you can help,Please contact me in Kingston WA.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 05:04 pm:

The cover was sold, probably, by Donald B Hess who reproduced them 30 years ago. I bought one from Hess. The cover to the two piece timer looks like the reproduced cover I have for my original timer. Does someone have a photo of a known original cover?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 06:03 pm:

I have never seen an original 403. I have an original 403 B with the small numbers, and an early reproduction of a 403 B with the large numbers. Darel, your 1910 should have a 403 B according to the August 1, 1909 parts list.
One thing to look for, some of the older reproductions did not fit around the stub of the crankshaft evenly and require a bit of machining. Another thing to look for is bulk. Some reproductions are thicker and weigh a bit more than the originals. If I could get my computer to co operate, I'd upload photos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Watson -Florence,Colorado on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 06:05 pm:

Timers were made by the Late Howard Caccia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 06:26 pm:

I am talking about the timer plate or cover bolted to the engine block when I said Hess reproduced them. I have one from Hess. He charged about $100 for one. I have several original fan arms for 1909-10 covers, so I will install the set when I pull the engine this summer to put in a rebuilt mag coil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 06:51 pm:

Richard

I think the "403" was the number first used on the water pump engines. Here is a picture of my old original water pump timer cover


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 06:52 pm:

sorry here is the photo




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 06:56 pm:

This next photo is of a reproduction early cover but simular to your typical 09 cover with the large numbers. Unfortunately I never took a photo of the only original one of these I have seen.

It was the first "T403B" cover as far as I know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 06:59 pm:

This is my original 10 cover with the smaller numbers.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 07:15 pm:

Early timers used till very approx. #14,000, were slightly smaller in diameter and did not have "Ford" or any writing on them. This plane cover will not fit an original later 2 piece as it is too small. Unfortunately the only photos I have are not clear

some notes I have:

09-E10 SMALLER CASE-BLANK COVER-LARGER RAISED SECTION ON LID

E10-L11 LARGER CASE-LARGER EMBOSSED COVER-SMALLER RAISED SECTION ON LID


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 08:20 pm:

Thanks for the valuable information, Mark. That settles the issue for me. The front cover advertised embossed 403 is clearly a reproduction. I wonder if who ever made it wanted to let folks know it was a reproduction by eliminating the B in the factory number. Either that or he simply didn't know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, January 21, 2018 - 11:48 pm:

The repro cover plate marked with the 403 only was a reproduction and the reason the maker did NOT put the B on it was that he was telling folks that it was the cover for the 1910 through 1911 but it IS NOT. The cover is in fact the some physical part as was used in 1911 where a vertical bolt and a lock nut was used to tighten up the belt by placing the bolt under the fan arm casting "nub".
There was NO FAN SPRING used with this cover ever. I make the spring that is used for 1910 per Ford drawing and it would never fit in that tight space and a longer belt to make room for the normal 1910 fan spring will mount the fan at a wacky place. The 1910 cover plate had a casting "well" for the fan spring to sit down into and thus with that setup the bottom of the spring is down far enough for the spring to operate between that location and the same NUB on the fan arm. That nub was on the fan arm for a long time even after it didn't do anything needed. I have the drawings for all of these covers and the one with the spring "well" is for typical 1910 and the one with the threaded boss in that same place is for typical 1911 and it did away with the fan spring. The spring that was sold with this repro 403 cover was not authentic but was a hardware store item and that stud sticking up was never used either but is simply a cutoff bolt that is run down in there and is supposedly for the spring to install over when you use the cover on 1910 but you won't find any spring that will work normally since you will have to STACK the spring coil windings to total compression and it still won't allow the fan belt to fit. I researched this rather thoroughly years ago and figured out that it was simply a case of the repro cover maker trying to expand the market for the covers he made. They WERE rather good castings if not authentic for the 1910 which is what I am claiming.

Hope this helps.

John Regan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, January 22, 2018 - 05:23 pm:

John

I have one of your springs on my 1910 Original Front Cylinder Cover (in photo above) and it works perfectly, thank you.

Andrew Brand has supplied some photos of an earlier original Cover with the large letters. Unfortunately the boss for the spring has been cut off across the front. But it gives a good picture of an original.





Does anyone know how to shift this thread to the Forum Discussions so it doesn't get deleted?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, January 22, 2018 - 11:51 pm:

Yes that is the 403B with the "well" for the spring but unfortunately somebody cut that almost off. What a shame but it probably COULD be welded up and fixed with a bit of work and a correct cover nearby to measure and compare against. One can thus see what I mean by the bottom of the spring sits much lower than the repro 1911 cover with the threaded boss located at the top edge of the cover and thus no dynamic range for the spring to operate in. That cover never used a spring at all. This 403B cover picture is a great example since it shows the cutaway depth of the spring well but boy I hate that it was done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Hand on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 05:21 am:

Is it possible ford modified that cover in the interim of changing the mold, that time frame was before the assembly line ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Tuesday, January 23, 2018 - 12:19 pm:

Hello Gents:
Let me muddy the waters a little with this photo. The "B" suffix here suggests a later part, and also has an enclosed bottom tightener boss with the hole threaded. Does an earlier version look identical except for no "B" suffix and no threading of the boss? Also, what feature(s) would indicate whether or not this cover is a reproduction?
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Wednesday, January 24, 2018 - 11:28 am:

Scott, one way to tell I am told is to fit the cover on an early block with the crank installed. See if the opening in the cover for the crank is centered over the crank so the space is equal all around. I've heard at least some of the repos need a bit of machining in that area.
Also check out the oil spout. Some of repos have multiple machining done in that area. The originals I have seen have the machining only for the oil cap, nothing but raw casting below.
Also the originals I have seen have a smooth oval on the back where the oil passes thru the cover into the timing gear area. See Marks photo above. The repos have a rather rough irregular opening. Finally the embossed lettering on the original covers is not as neat as yours. See Marks photo above.
I believe the 403 cover without the B was for the water pump engine. See photo above.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Wednesday, January 24, 2018 - 02:39 pm:

Many thanks Richard. Any thoughts per the threaded adjustment hole on this cover? Bruce's Black Book says the threaded adjustment is a 1911 feature, so curious whether this cover may be a repro, designed for both early and later application?
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, January 24, 2018 - 04:52 pm:

Scott

Have a look at what Richard is talking about and also see if it has the large "Cathedral" indents to assist with getting in the lower flange bolts in the bottom front of the plate, as in the repro pic I posted with the large "T403B".

Also look for the large corresponding reinforcing lumps on the rear of the plate like in the photo below. If so, I would say it is, as you say, a repro designed either way. This is a pic of the back of the repro one I posted above with the large "T403B".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Wednesday, January 24, 2018 - 08:21 pm:

Hello Mark:
Many thanks for this help. Unfortunately, I don't have the part in front of me, and only top portion shown in a photo. Ross L. believes the part is a repro, where I'm sure he has reason to believe this. I have no problem with a repro plate, but was concerned about the fan tensioning functioning properly, using the correct extension spring. Regards,Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Thursday, January 25, 2018 - 01:07 pm:

The large 403B repo I have looks exactly like Marks, and what I can see of yours, Scott.
The one on my 10 touring car is the small 403B repo made by Howard Caccia I am told. It has the threaded boss for use on an 11 car. I found a spring at Orchard Supply that is the right length and tension to fit over a short stud inserted into the threaded hole. Not correct but it gives the right tension and height. It appears to be a bit smaller in OD than the original springs.
If I pull the engine, I will replace the cover with an original I have with the bored boss. Then I hope Mr Regan still has the correct reproduction in stock. I guess I should check now.
Scott I just now read your last remark. I think you need to bore the boss before Johns spring will work


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Thursday, January 25, 2018 - 02:26 pm:

my cover has the small 403b # with the large hole for the spring& it fits the crank. would this be right for my # 25000 motor. thanks charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Thursday, January 25, 2018 - 04:50 pm:

Not sure but It would be right for my 4500 engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Thursday, January 25, 2018 - 05:40 pm:

Robbie, I'd be interested to know if both styles (the large and small lettering) were used concurrently. I have seen each style with either a spring hole or a threaded boss. That suggests were used concurrently but I really don't know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Friday, January 26, 2018 - 10:09 pm:

Moved from the classifieds to retain discussion about correct early front timing covers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, January 27, 2018 - 06:42 am:

One thing that you "might" be able to use to identify a repro from an original cover is that the aluminum timer that was NOT held on by the brush itself was not used until AFTER the oiler timer which was used starting in early 1912. Thus nether of the early timer covers used in 1910-1911 if original would have had any reason to machine the hole where the cam was and where the timer mounted. That ring and shoulder area were "AS CAST" and used a felt donut seal between the cover and the back of the timer so there was no need for that hole to be perfectly centered nor the bored hole to be square corner bored for the later aluminum oiler timer to fit into. Remember that the next cover after the 1911 one was a cover with NO OIL FILLER HOLE at all. That cover was the first one that had the "timer hole" area machined with square corners in the timer cavity and centering of the bored holes being perfectly aligned with the cam center. The donut timer seal didn't need anything precise so check the corner of the cavity bore and you will find a radius from the casting mold and it was not machined to a flat corner in there since the timer that was held by a arm "spring" never had to rotate in that cavity nor to be perfectly centered in a cavity with a precision bore diameter and precision cam location centering.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Saturday, January 27, 2018 - 08:06 am:

Richard,
I am not expert in the field of timing gear covers but from what I understand, the threaded boss started being used in 1911. The non-threaded pocket for a spring was used in 1909-10.
I am not sure about the large and small lettering on the threaded hole and non-threaded hole.

I have a 1911 cover with the threaded hole I would trade in on a cover with a non-threaded hole or pocket as some call it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Saturday, January 27, 2018 - 08:15 am:

Forgot to mention,
I don't care if it is the large or small numbers as long as it has the hole for the spring pocket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Saturday, January 27, 2018 - 11:41 am:

Interesting Model T mystery.
This would be a great subject to research at the BFRC. All the answers to questions about the genesis and subsequent changes to Model T part factory number 403, the date they occurred and approximately when in serial production were used would be revealed in all the factory prints and Record of Change cards.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, January 28, 2018 - 02:49 am:

Ron:

Except that for the early years the record is not always so complete. There are change dates on drawings for which there is no mention in the "record of changes" as to what was changed. Not saying that applies here but the early cars are hardest to research since there are gaps in the coverage. Sometimes starting in about 1917 or so they started to designate WHERE on a part the Ford Script should go but they never say how the pattern is numbered nor anything about where the correct factory number should be placed on the part. There were fewer sources for parts during the early T production so you tend not to find too many variations that are not in fact design changes but once production ramped up then you find more variations of what is essentially the same part even though they have the same revision dates. The spring pocket was bored so the same pattern didn't need to be changed to be then drilled and threaded. I suspect then the pattern was changed probably to bore the bolt hole all the way through to make threading easier. Blind holes are harder to tap out than holes that are drilled through.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, February 01, 2018 - 08:44 am:

Below are photos of the two front covers in my possession. The top one is a reproduction "1910" spring pocket cover. I believe this is the newer and more correctly made cover that doesn't have the fitment issues mentioned about prior reproductions. Below that is what I believe to be an original "1911" tension bolt cover. Someone mentioned reproductions being heavier and it weighs 3/4 lb. less than the repro. Noticeable when you pick it up.

Without being able to measure them, it would seem the reproduction Les was selling is an accurate copy of the 1911 cover and that the pin was added so it could function with the spring, which as John correctly pointed out would not work as designed. It's too bad that whoever made those didn't put a solid boss shaped like on the 1910 cover because then the buyer could either drill it for a spring or mill it off and drill and tap for a bolt.

Between my two covers, the location of the top of that boss measures the same.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, February 05, 2018 - 06:51 am:

Thanks Chris for moving this discussion.

Thanks Walter for the photo of the 1911 Cover. It looks to have the small number "T403B". Does anyone have any photos of an original 1911 Cover with the large numbers?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 01:26 am:

If anyone comes up with a picture of an original 1911 Cover with the large "T403B" please send photos or place photos on this discussion. I personally think the large number cover was for 1909 and maybe very early 1910, but I could be wrong there.

Here is a close up photo of a 1911 Cover with a small number "T403 1". I wonder if the "1" designates a change to the new style threaded boss?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 01:37 am:

Then came the Later 11 - Very early 12 Style with integral Commutator - Oil Filler. The plate for Left & Right hand drive cars are the same, but the Aluminium Commutator - Oil Filer varies for Left or Right Control.

First the cover:




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 01:42 am:

A variation on the cover:

Thus one had a neatly riveted tin deflector directing oil to the commutator roller area. Not sure if this is a genuine factory addition or something added by the owner / garage but it is very neatly done. This is the only cover I have seen like this. Has anyone else seen a cover like this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 02:07 am:

The Commutator / Oil Filler as said comes in Left and Right Hand Drive. The difference being the location of the control lever. LHD versions have the lever cast into the top of the Commutator / Filler, while RHD type has the Lever built into the Bottom. First the LHD version (photos from Kim):





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 02:11 am:



Before I forget, the Cylinders had a corresponding lump in the Timing Case area, to the internal oiler of the cover. See if I can find a photo later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 02:24 am:

For RHD, the integral lever on the Filler / Commutator is located on the bottom. Interestingly, RHD, in this version, is not mentioned in any Canadian Parts books that I have access to. Does anyone have a parts book where they are mentioned?

(Note that the next version without the oil filler, called 1912-13 is mentioned for in Right and Left in later parts books - to do with the oiler location and not the filler neck)

Fortunately I have owned 2 examples of these and have seen one other here in Australia, still on the original motor as from new. So they were made.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 02:32 am:

The parts book shows the longer bolt and tube as in Kim's photos. The Comutator hold down spring appears to be different shape to the later springs. The roller appears not have the flange to hold the 2 piece timer in place T3165.

From Feb 1 1912 Canadian Parts Book



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 02:57 am:

I found the Left & Right Parts listed in a copy of a Jan 1st 1912 English Parts Book. Seems only the integral aluminium Commutator / Oiler is the only RHD difference


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Thursday, February 08, 2018 - 03:01 am:

The Cylinders used with this cover, with the raised section in the Timing Case area. Note how the oil is deflected.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Wednesday, February 14, 2018 - 03:48 pm:

Mark, my original cover shown above has the part number the same as yours -- T403 and then the hash mark after the raised boss. On mine it doesn't appear as the serif number one, it is just a straight vertical line and I don't know its significance.

It does seem that the raised number boss on an original cover on this design is a rectangle with rounded ends whereas on the reproduction the raised boss is an oval.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 12:11 am:

Thanks for the information, Walter. Your description of the raised number boss is a quick way to pick a reproduction.

Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 01:43 pm:

Those extra markings in raised cast I think are MOLD number designation to show which mold was used to make a particular casting. I suspect that way if a flaw is discovered during machining or other time, there will then be a road map back to the bad mold that produced that part. You see that sort of thing on lots of castings but it is not always near the factory number but probably could be most anywhere on the casting that it was convenient to put it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 03:49 pm:

I think I want to point out something that might be helpful. I want to talk about casting PATTERN here. The casting pattern for the 403B cover need only be machined with a threaded hole instead of bored out to the larger well size to accept the spring. Scott Rosenthal posted an excellent picture of one. That part is in fact a rather early example of a 403C according the record of changes. There was no need to use a different casting pattern right away since it was simply necessary to drill and thread the boss rather than make it different. That actual change was dated as 7/19/10 but the new drawing of 403C which shows a different pattern that now is drilled all the way through and has a flat bottom on the casting boss was in fact dated as 7/27/10 NEW DESIGN. There was no 403D since the entire cover was redesigned without a filler hole and I think that cover ALONE was factory number 4451 since it is stated in the record of changes for the 403 cover that the 4451 was to be used with the "New Commutator" and that replacement occurred on 5/11/11. Remember these are design change dates. The Record of Changes also states that BOTH the 403B and 403C were obsoleted on 12/14/11

Further the record of changes shows that Ford continued to make changes to 403B while 403C was also being used. For example on 12/19/10 BOTH parts had the diameter of the timer recess hole changed from 2" diameter to 2-1/16" diameter. Clearly on that date for sure they were using up the older castings and also modifying the new ones. This was early production and there were NOT as many cars being made as there would be in just 2 years from this time.

Hope this helps clear up some things.

Scott Rosenthal - could you possibly take a picture of that cover that might clearly show what that threaded hole boss looks like on the underside since the photo has a shadow there but I believe that is a 403B pattern drilled to 403C change so that cover would have existed at the same time the 403C pattern was being created. I have the factory drawing for both of those cover plates but your cover is an interim cover but clearly not a filled and redrilled item unless a picture of the underside shows differently.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Sunday, February 18, 2018 - 08:17 pm:

Hello John:
Apologies, but both covers are presently with the engine being overhauled out of state. Both covers were believed to be reproductions by the 2 gentlemen who I received them from.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, February 19, 2018 - 10:48 am:

I strongly suggest that the 403B that you pictured with the threaded boss is anything but an original part. The B does not suggest a later part (1911), it suggests a 1910 part that was made for the spring but drilled as a later part. I was not aware that anyone made a reproduction of the 403B part until recently when Lang offered it. What was made was a 403C part that was supplied with a threaded headless stud sticking up and the claim that it would fit both 10 and 11. The markings on the casting were generally tardy in being updated so when I refer to a B or C part I am talking about what drawing it matches up with.

Many early pinion bearing spools were redrilled and then used as a later spool. Ford did that between the pre 1911 spool and the later 1911 spool so there is ample evidence of them doing that. I think that is what is confusing the timing cover here. They were doing the same thing.


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