Resurrection of a 1909 Model T, part III

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Resurrection of a 1909 Model T, part III
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Sunday, December 31, 2017 - 10:11 pm:

This is the continuation of the previous thread. I thought part II would see the motor in the chassis and running. The clutch problems put the kibosh on that. So we continue two steps forward and occasionally one backwards.

Today was a good day, I now have the 09 engine running.
After the clutch problem, I had too many thin disks in the clutch housing. Of course to get to the disks, I had to remove the motor from the chassis and then pull the block off the pan. I had an old starter flywheel and installed it on the crankshaft and put it all back on the pan. The starter hogs head didnít quite line up with the bolt holes in the pan, so I used four 3/8 bolts and four 5/16 and it seemed to hold quite well. I used a T starter which had been modified for 12 volt operation and it started the motor fairly easily. Of course oil poured out of the holes with no bolts but they were blocked with paper for the test.
There was one more surprise, the exhaust manifold has a crack between the exhaust ports two and three.
So in the new year, tomorrow, I will start to rebuild the motor with the correct flywheel and re-install the whole mess back in the chassis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, December 31, 2017 - 10:59 pm:

Thank you for the update. Progress is still progress.
Hope you don't mind if I post a link to part II.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/708324/803309.html?1514775500

Tony B! Hoping you have a wonderful New Year! Not too many steps backward, and a good time getting that incredible piece of history back onto the road. And many more years of enjoying it as the beautiful and desirable car it is becoming!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 03:35 pm:

Damn.
Still doing two forward and one back.



Look at the letter on the pedal and where they are placed on the hogshead :-(

This is how the name hogshead was established.



(Message edited by Tony_bowker on January 03, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 03:51 pm:

Well, that could make for a fun time!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 04:21 pm:

Actually that was just the first set back. The fourth main bearing no longer slides in without binding. This will need investigating.
I wonder if running the starter has distorted the pan, it is very flexible :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 04:28 pm:

Bummer! The letters R and B do look similar at first glance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 04:41 pm:

First. Did you have the crankcase straightened before you started your work? If it was determined to be straight the first time you installed it, it is unlikely the starter hogs head distorted it, at least to any great degree. Try loosening all the bolts on the engine and hogs head and turn the engine nose down with the front end of the engine hanging, such as you could do if the engine is on an engine stand. Then slip on the 4th main and slide the rear of the crankcase right and left and see if you can get the 4th main to slide freely. Usually that will fix things. If the 4th main binds at the top or bottom, then the crankcase is bent and needs to be straightened.

From the angle of the picture posted, it looks like the pedal which is in the brake position which has the letter R looks too short for reverse, but maybe it is just the way it looks on the picture. It looks like the pedal on reverse which has the letter B would fit right in the hole for the brake pedal, so the two shafts are probably swapped.

Don't get discouraged, Tony, I am looking forward to seeing you drive that car on a tour some day soon.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 05:02 pm:

Norman, I would differ with your indication that bolting down the hogshead is not likely to distort the pan. My experience is it is highly likely. The early pans have no rolled edge at the pan rail to stiffen up the pan. When building the motor for my 1915 speedster, I had exactly this problem. A straightened pan went on perfectly, with the fourth main aligned exactly, an easy slide in fit. As soon as the hogshead went on, the rear of the pan was pulled upwards. I pulled the cover and reduced the thickness of the felt seal at the front of the hogshead, and replaced the cover. The problem remained.

It was remedied by linking a chain front and back and using an hydraulic jack to bend the pan slightly in situ. After a few gentle pushes with not a great deal of pressure, I was able to attain the required easy slide fit for the fourth main.

This was on a 1915 pan which does have some rolled edges, although they are not continuous all around the pan. It is my understanding that the early pans have no rolled edges. I can well believe the gentle persuasion I used to correct the problem is an indication that the early pans will have a deal of flex, around which we have to work.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Thursday, January 04, 2018 - 11:11 am:

I had the pan aligned on a Ford fixture by Kim Dobbins.
When I first assembled the motor, the fourth main bearing slipped right in once I had ground off a dimple on the head.
Because of the clutch problem, I had to separate the pan and Block. After I fixed the clutch I installed a starter hogshead and ring gear to start the motor. The head didnít quite fit the pan so I used some 3/8 bolts and some 5/16 bolts and clamps. After I got it running I reinstalled the original flywheel and original hogshead. Now the fourth doesnít fit correctly.
I removed all the Block and hogshead bolts and aligned the rear main side to side.
That is now complete, however the back of the pan is about 1/32 too high to correctly align the fourth main. I plan to continue working the pan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Thursday, January 04, 2018 - 11:32 am:

Several people have contacted me about the alignment of the starter head on the pan. I have tried several times to photograph the problem but itís not easy :-(
This the head on the early pan



The next two show the mis-alignment of the two holes on the outside right. The other four front bolts were similar but too difficult for me to photograph.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Thursday, January 04, 2018 - 04:02 pm:

I forgot to mention that the four rear bolts (2 each side) line up perfectly. You can see the heads of two of the bolts in the first picture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, January 04, 2018 - 04:45 pm:

Is Kim located anywhere near Ramona? It would be best to align it again on the fixture. However if you can carefully bend the pan down 1 32" you might get it to fit. Important to rotate the crankshaft to be sure the problem is not a misalignment of the 4th main with the crankshaft. If it fits the same way all around, that alignment is OK. Good luck Tony, I am confident that you will get things right and the car will run very well when you are done.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy Traralgon Australia on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 10:40 pm:

Tony, the original one piece pan on my Dads 1910 touring was easy to realign on a jig but easy to bend again when bolting things up. Sommthing that helped a little was to add some of the reinforcing brackets from a later Model pan that go on the underside in the area in front of the chassis bracket and the rod area of the pan. I think they came off an old 1926/27 4 dip pan? The brackets may also be on earlier pans? This did help to stiffen up the whole area.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 01:15 am:

You have heard me whine about the poor fitting parts on my 09 and I have been trying to find out why.....
My thought that it was built on October 4, 1909 just as the were closing the Piquette plant prior the move to Highland Park in January 1910. I assumed all the competent supervision was out at the Park.
At tonightís Board meeting of the MTFCSD one of the ladies came up with the real reason. Check what day it was on October 4, 1909. - It was a Monday. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 03:21 am:

Okay Tony B! Now THAT is funny! :-) :-)

I DO hope things are progressing somewhat?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy Traralgon Australia on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 04:45 am:

Tony, Mark Chaffin has a pair of he brackets for strenghtening the pan that I spoke of in my post above. Here is the link.http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/3487/825789.html?1515648511


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 08:24 pm:

Well the chassis, engine and axles are essentially done. I know the engine will run, the clutch works and I have started a ďhave I done?Ē list, so now to the body.



The bottom half is covered with fiberglass, even over some of the bolt heads. Today I started on the left side.



Here I found the first (of many) problem. Over the years the bolts have sunk into the wood. I can fill under the bolt head but how strong will the fill be and how long will it last?
Once the surface is stable I plan to veneer the lower portions and eventually brush enamel paint.



Remember I trying to make it like it was on October 4, 1909. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, January 11, 2018 - 08:40 pm:

If you're not replacing a missing original layer, there is no need to veneer. A good coating of West System 105 Epoxy Resin will restore surface integrity and give you something you can sand without having to remove more wood. You can mix it with their thickener to fill deep areas, such as under your bolt heads, and bring them back to the surface. So long as it's not overtorqued, it will have as much integrity (or maybe slightly better) as torquing them on a new wood surface.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Thursday, January 18, 2018 - 12:11 am:

I am now into the restoration of the original wood body. I have asked and received many opinions on how to proceed, Iím sure that most would work but I had to remember two basics that have guided me through this effort

First I wanted to retain as much as possible of the original Car, in this case the wood body. I suspect a profession restored would have either a new body built or at least the lower half replaced. One of the premier wood body guys in the country, Ray Wells known as the Craftsman, lives about 20 miles south of here so it certainly would have been the easy way out. However I want to save the original wood.

Second I really want to do it myself. While I have restored over a dozen cars over the past 40 years, ďIĒ want to do this for myself even if the auction value when I pass is a little less.

So I have decided to restore the existing body and use the West epoxy system to get the desired surface.
After talking with restorers with experience, they all recommend to apply the epoxy on horizontal surfaces. Well Iím not going to disassemble the body so I will have to turn it on itís side and later on the front so I can do the back panels.





On the sides the worst area is where the carriage bolts have sunk into the wood over the last 100+ years



These indentations will require filler, then careful drilling followed by fileing the hole square for the shank of the carriage bolts. Sounds like fun, I only have to do it 18 times. :-)

(Message edited by Tony_bowker on January 18, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Thursday, January 18, 2018 - 01:06 am:

Tony, back when I was first looking at this car, my plan was to take the body to Ray and have him re use the seat backs and replace the lower side and back section while reusing the original frame pieces. That seemed to me as the best compromise. Over the years, Ray has restored many wood bodies useing much of the original wood.


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