Bolt Replacement Advice Please

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2018: Bolt Replacement Advice Please
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 03:05 am:

For Christmas, my wife bought for me some replacement bolts to spruce up the engine and to make it more correct. The bolts she bought are the domed shaped bolts that were nickel-plated for the 1926 - 27 years. These now come made of stainless steel. My concern is that if I take out one of the bolts, say on the water inlet for example, is that going to loosen things up enough that I'm going to have to put a new gasket on? How about the exhaust manifold if I take them out one at a time? Should I start at the center and work my way out? Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 06:48 am:

I wouldn't be comfortable using a head bolt made of stainless steel. Seems like SS wouldn't be stout enough. Also, I think you would be better off removing the head and replacing the gasket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Hand on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 07:33 am:

Tim, what is wrong with a SS bolt that is only torqued to 50-5 pounds-feet, and if you are only replacing 1 bolt at a time why go thru the expense of removing the cylinder head prematurely for all we know the head gasket is only a month old, my opinion. George


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 08:53 am:

Good grief. There is no need to remove anything or replace any gaskets. Stainless Steel is the only bolt allowed on NASA's spacecraft so it'll be fine on your Model T. Replace one bolt at a time, and you're fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Codman on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 09:23 am:

I'm not sure of the thread size and pitch of a model T head bolt, but the highest torque that I could find for a stainless steel bolt of 1/2" diameter is 47 ft/lbs. Is a T head bolt larger then 1/2"? I don't think so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don A on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 09:36 am:

All stainless steel bolts are not equal. If the bolts are made of the 300 series (303, 316) stainless steel material, then the bolts are not as strong as C-1045 steel and easier to machine. The 400 series (410) is stronger than C-1045 steel, but harder to machine (thread). Without knowing the exact material the bolts are made out of, one cannot say what the strength is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 09:45 am:

"Stainless Steel is the only bolt allowed on NASA's spacecraft so it'll be fine on your Model T"

This kind of unfounded reasoning and dissemination to others in the hobby is dangerous. No one should use NASA specifications when determining what parts to use on a 100 year old car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Barcelona area (Spain) on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 09:57 am:

Jim Kelsey, if we're talking about the 13 piece replacement dome style stainless steel bolt set, there is no need to loosen the head bolts at all. The pieces included in this set are:

2 water inlet bolts
2 water outlet bolts
2 front motor mount bolts
1 Generator bracket mounting bolt
4 Manifold Mounting bolts
2 Valve Cover Bolts

https://www.modeltford.com/item/3008-3112D.aspx

As far as I know the replacement dome style head bolts are nickel plated steel, not stainless steel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Barcelona area (Spain) on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 09:59 am:

If your gaskets are in good shape you should be able to replace the bolts one at a time without causing any problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 10:02 am:

As far as I know there is no such thing as a SS head bolt- doesn't make sense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 10:12 am:

The OP didn't say anything about the head so quite possibly a bunch of responses don't apply. Also doesn't mean he intends to do the head and didn't mention it. If they came from a reputable vendor of T parts, one could assume they are made to spec and useable. Yes, assumed


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 10:15 am:

Im with Eric and Tim. I do not think your head bolts are stainless. They are either chrome or nickel plated steel. Change them one at a time will be OK. Then remember to re-torque after running and cool off. I always highly suggest to use anti-seize on the threads when using stainless blots. Anti-seize is "required" on all stainless bolts used in the nuclear industry ... Anti-seize does not change the torque readings like oil, grease ect does ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By RE Helgeson on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 10:41 am:

Jim, I looked at Lang's and Snyder's and the domed head bolts are being advertised as Nickel plated steel. I did not see any advertised as Stainless. If your wife purchased them from either of these vendors you should be ok replacing one at a time being sure to clean out the bolt hole in the block. If the package these were packaged in indicates Stainless I would contact the vendor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 10:46 am:

If you use compressed air to blow the debris out of the bolt holes, be sure to wear eye protection! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By RE Helgeson on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 11:04 am:

Good call Mark, we should all wear safety glasses and hearing protection as well when applicable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 11:32 am:

If the bolt set is from Langís, this is the description from their on line catalog.

303 Stainless steel domed head engine bolt set for august 1926 to end of production in 1927. 13 piece set which includes; 2 water inlet bolts, 2 water outlet bolts, 2 front motor mount bolts, 1 Generator bracket mounting bolt, 4 Manifold Mounting bolts, 2 Valve Cover Bolts. Originally these were nickel plated steel bolts but are now offered in stainless steel.

So they are stainless steel and as Langís quality is as good or better than most, he should be fine changing one bolt at a time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By RE Helgeson on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 12:17 pm:

Tony, you are correct on this set but I don't think the actual Head Bolts are included. In rereading the original post I'm not sure Jim is actually talking about the head bolts at all. So yes, the stainless should work fine for the water inlet/outlet etc. The actual head bolts appear to be nickel plated steel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 12:33 pm:

I wonder how may Model T's have been seen in outer space! :-)

I'll have to ask my son!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 12:57 pm:

I appreciate all of the input and discussion, but Tony and Gary are correct - I wasn't talking about the headbolts at all - it was the 13-piece set that Lang's sells.

I eventually want to get the headbolt set. Since that topic came up and a guy replaces one at a time, would you guys recommend setting all of them at 40 fp, then incrementally going up to 50-55 fp or replacing one at a time and going right up to 50-55 fp? Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By RE Helgeson on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 01:06 pm:

Jim, I would snug them all up one at a time then incrementally torque them in sequence until you reach 50 - 55 fp.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 01:14 pm:

For those areas you don't need 50 ft-lbs. You risk breaking something at those torques. 30/35 ft-lbs. should be more than enough for water inlets/outlets, and way too much for the valve cover.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 01:18 pm:

Tighten them until they strip and then back them off a quarter turn...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 01:20 pm:

Wouldn't worry about new s.s. bolts as they are strong enough, can't image one breaking, unless you bottomed out, but that should not happen if you check depths and clean holes.

But the threads in the block are where you can strip out, as the iron is old now, and many times bolts have been placed.

Would just limit torque to get the head gasket crushed and sealed. 45 lbs. should do it. Go higher than 50 lbs. on tired threads in the block and it's more risky.

Haven't seen the new s.s. head bolts from Lang's. Have used the steel nickel dome ones. Photo below, used Ford head bolt (left), steel nickel plated dome repro (center), and original dome steel head, but nickel long gone, (right).



Detail of thread forms.



As for changing water outlet bolts or inlet bolts, do it. The gasket there was sealed tight by the prior bolts. Have done that a lot, like removing horn from a head bolt and water inlet bolt to replace the horn, or to replace head mounted coil boxes too. No issues in that if the gaskets are known good to begin with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 01:28 pm:

Dan,

He's not talking about head bolts. Somebody, assumed so, and started a head bolt rant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 01:33 pm:

Jerry

Yes, s.s. head bolts

I eventually want to get the headbolt set. Since that topic came up and a guy replaces one at a time, would you guys recommend setting all of them at 40 fp, then incrementally going up to 50-55 fp or replacing one at a time and going right up to 50-55 fp? Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 02:43 pm:

Dan,

Why didn't you copy Jim's first sentence as well?

"... I wasn't talking about the headbolts at all - it was the 13-piece set that Lang's sells."

Yes, he eventually wants to do the head bolts too, but he says NOTHING about SS head bolts. Just head bolts. The only one who mentioned SS head bolts is Tim Rogers, who mistakenly thought that Jim initially was enquiring about same.

I give up... Have a nice day guys! Happy New Year! I'm gonna go polish my head bolts :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 03:23 pm:

No need to torque them high....303 stainless bolts are equivalent of Grade 2/Grade 3 bolts (which were equal to the original factory spec.). Do one at a time and donít worry about gasket shift. Just pull them up tight and good to go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 04:28 pm:

Guys:

Thanks again for answering my questions.

My final question: What is the best way to polish the stainless steel bolts, especially the sides. I don't know if the entire bolt head was nickel-plated or just the top, but it looks better if the entire head (top and sides) were polished. I have tried using nail files with mixed results and have to be really careful not to take too much off the sides.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 04:54 pm:

Do NOT do what Tim says! Hopefully he was posting with tongue in cheek. :-) If those bolts came from Langs, they should work very well. You might want to run a bottoming tap down the threads in the block and blow out the dirt before you install them.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 05:02 pm:

Jim

The better way is to power buff the stainless on a buffing wheel with polishing compound. Will make the s.s. shine, and bring a slight nickel look to the part also.

Jerry

Stay warm fella! The s.s. bolts was news to me too, until Tony posted Lang's on-line description of their dome head cyl head bolts, so I just got bolted headed :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Wednesday, January 03, 2018 - 06:57 pm:

Tim Rogers... With 34 career years as an Opto-Mechanical Engineer at the NASA, Goddard Space Flight Center, I'm pretty sure I know a thing or two about bolts. So while my comment to Jim Kelsey may have been a bit more casual than you prefer, there was nothing unfounded or dangerous about my statement. I just thought that showing the math may have been a bit much.

Again, I'm 100% sure that stainless will suffice for Jim's application.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C-west central, MN on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 12:12 am:

Jim, how's that bolt set replacement coming?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 07:32 am:

The last time I inquired about buying some stainless steel bolts, for an aluminum head, I was told they were only stainless steel coated, so I did not buy them.

That was over 10 years ago, so they may be real now.

If they are still only coated, it would not be wise to polish off the coating.

An easy test to be sure is to see if a magnet sticks to them.

Stainless steel is non-magnetic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry & Sharon Miller, Westminster, CO on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 07:46 am:

James,

Stainless steel being magnetic or not depends on the alloy. There are some stainless alloys, with more ferrous iron in them, that ARE magnetic, albeit less than pure steel. So the magnet test is a good one but be sure to watch HOW magnetic the piece is, if it does attract the magnet. Weak attraction = low grade stainless alloy. NO attraction = higher grade alloy.

Terry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 07:51 am:

James- thanks for the bio. I can now understand how specializing in fastening cameras to space craft directly relates to recommending using SS for head bolts on a Model T...

No matter what the grade SS should not be used as a head bolt. You don't want Grade 2 or 3 on your cylinder head, not to mention the low tensile strength compared to steel. There's also the issue of electrolysis but we can wait for a Theoretical and Clinical Components Engineer to comment on that...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem S.E. Michigan on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 12:19 pm:

So Tim, in what branch of engineering is your degree in? What makes you the materials and fasteners expert?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 12:43 pm:

Is it spring time yet?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis R on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 03:59 pm:

I now always use anti-seize compound when installing stainless hardware to cast iron. Was told by an "old timer" to do that when building the engine for my 54 F100. Wish I had listened, had a heck of a time replacing the fuel pump a few years later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By RE Helgeson on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 05:08 pm:

This thread has certainly gone off the deep end. Jim never mentioned SS head bolts. The keeper of all thing Model T brought that up and the rest of us got sucked into it. Fellas we will never win arguing with the keeper of the truth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 06:04 pm:

Re Helgeson is correct -I never did once mention stainless steel head bolts. Langs does not carry them - they carry nickel plated bolts. I appreciate Dennis advice on using anti seize on stainless steel bolts into cast iron. That was something I did not know and I'm glad that I have not started the process yet, so I think that answers Duey's question.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 06:23 pm:

No SS head bolts offered by Lang's:



Can't find them anywhere- so here is an opportunity for someone to produce the highly recommended SS head bolts...

(Message edited by Antique_iron on January 05, 2018)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By RE Helgeson on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 06:40 pm:

Ummmm.. exactly who was recommending ss head bolts? No need to stir this pot. It's empty!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 07:19 pm:

Maybe we can quit beating this dead horse, the poor things starting to liquefy. :-) As a few others here have said, all S/S is not equal, but when made for a specific purpose such as head bolts, they can be as strong if not stronger than Steel. Below are some S/S head bolts for a small block Ford. Considering the torque for a SB Ford is about 70 ft-lbs, i would think that these bolts would work just fine if they were available for our T's.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-454-3601/overview/

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2008/09/fastener-facts/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 07:56 pm:

Tim

Thank you, I got wrong info on earlier post I guess, so nickel steel they are from Lang's for the head bolts. It's the other dress up dome head ones that are now s.s. for the water outlets and manifold stud bolts on the later '26-27!

Nickel plated cylinder head bolt set, domed head
Item Number : 3003CS
Year : 1926-1927


Now I got it, shining bright off the computer screen :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Friday, January 05, 2018 - 08:09 pm:

Bolts that are made of 17-4 Stainless alloy can have strengths that slightly exceed grade 8 carbon steel equivalents.

Carbon Steel used in Grade 8 Fasteners:
91 ksi in single shear
130 ksi tensile yield
150 ksi tensile ultimate

17-4 Stainless Bar heat treated to H1025 (this would be the likely condition for a bolt)
95 ksi single shear
145 ksi tensile yield
155 ksi tensile ultimate

ARP makes bolts from 17-4, and here is one online store where you can buy their 1/4"-3/4" diameter stainless bolts up to 12" lengths. They are all flanged head bolts: http://stainlessbits.com/cart/shopdisplaycategories.asp?id=69&cat=%3Cbr%3EHigh+S trength+Standard+Thread+Fasteners+Inches%3Cbr%3E

BEWARE: Impact strength is SIGNIFICANTLY reduced for 17-4 Stainless at subzero temperatures!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Sunday, January 07, 2018 - 04:40 am:

I started replacing the bolts tonight and the right water outlet bolt did not want the thread into the aluminum z-head. So, instead of forcing it, I decided to do some reading on the compatibility of stainless steel with aluminum. https://www.bssa.orge.uk/topics.php?article=89

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?43880-Does-stainless-react-with-aluminium


The head is not a marine, salt water environment, however, water is present, as is the block being used as a ground. I'm not educated enough in metallurgy to know whether or not putting the stainless steel bolts into the aluminum head will cause an adverse chemical reaction. My thoughts are to err on the side of safety and not install them. Your thoughts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marc Roberts, York, Pennsylvania on Sunday, January 07, 2018 - 02:53 pm:

You are correct to have this concern. Google "dissimilar metals chart" for confirmation. Corrosion of the aluminum will be increased by a stainless fastener.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, January 07, 2018 - 03:29 pm:

Jim

Minimal concern IMO.

I always use anti-seize on bolts into the block or around the block and on spark plug threads too.

This material will prevent corrosion on parts too.



Those bolts that hold the water outlet to the alum cyl head are outboard of any contact to the water jacket anyway. Shouldn't be concern, and use of anti-seize will reduce what could be to hard to believe could happen. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Spyker on Sunday, January 07, 2018 - 08:39 pm:

Don't is correct, you need to know the material before using in a max condition. 300 series is non-magnetic while 400 series is magnetic.
Electrolysis may be a concern but in the 70s we used 420 grade for plastic injection mold tooling because the product molding material was EVA. It produced a highly corrosive gas which we vented trough the SHCS mounting bolts clearance holes. Never lost any threads.
The first thing a performance engine builder does is to run a bottom tap in all the threaded holes on a block. I did not say run a tap to the bottom. Taps come in sets of 3 each having different lengths of thread. The fullest length is called a bottom tap. Use plenty of cutting fluid backing off quarter turn every full rotation. Afterward use a scriber or ice pick to loosen any compacted chip or Burr lodged on the bottom before blowing compressed air into the hole. Use goggles with a rag around the air chuck. Should you break or fracture a tap inside a threaded hole DO NOT try to remove it, take it to a machine shop. It will be cheaper!
Pushtruck


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